Omerta+ 1,206 Posted November 7, 2017 I am not making distinctions between religions. I am saying that no religion, Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism etc should give you the right to discriminate against people. You are literally changing what I am saying to try to fit your argument. So what do you call people with swastika tattoos that chant "blood and soil" and "the Jews will not replace us" that want a white ethnostate and drive cars into people that oppose them? Then why did you make it a point to distinctly call out Christians in your little monologues? I'm not changing anything, it's just that you always have to backpedal because you say things that fit one particular instance, but seem to change in the next instance. It wasn't until after somebody brought up the fact that if it happened to Muslims you would be upset about it, that you changed your tune. I'm not saying this to attack you, I'm just pointing out I find it a bit Rich that you call somebody out for hypocracy and double standards, and in the very same thread not even two or three pages back you do the same thing to Christians, making no distinctions on whether you talking about all or one. It was scattershot, and it still scattershot the reason you do that is very intelligent, because it's hard to pin down your argument. Notice how when I pointed out that you were okay with a government telling what religion what to do, but not the other way around that you got defensive. So again I ask, should the government be able to dictate to religion? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
seanbrock 1,684 Posted November 7, 2017 (edited) @ BWare Fascism only serves to give extremists more power and makes their cause seem a lot more justified to the innocents who would suffer as a result of the kinds of things you're talking about. I think a much more effective way to combat Islamic extremism would be to stop bombing in the Middle East. I'd probably hate America if I was an Iraqi who had my home destroyed and family murdered for profit. Edited November 7, 2017 by seanbrock Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blotsfan 2,112 Posted November 7, 2017 Then why did you make it a point to distinctly call out Christians in your little monologues? I'm not changing anything, it's just that you always have to backpedal because you say things that fit one particular instance, but seem to change in the next instance. It wasn't until after somebody brought up the fact that if it happened to Muslims you would be upset about it, that you changed your tune. I'm not saying this to attack you, I'm just pointing out I find it a bit Rich that you call somebody out for hypocracy and double standards, and in the very same thread not even two or three pages back you do the same thing to Christians, making no distinctions on whether you talking about all or one. It was scattershot, and it still scattershot the reason you do that is very intelligent, because it's hard to pin down your argument. Notice how when I pointed out that you were okay with a government telling what religion what to do, but not the other way around that you got defensive. So again I ask, should the government be able to dictate to religion? Because Christianity is the dominant religion of the US and the religion of all the people who do this. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
seanbrock 1,684 Posted November 7, 2017 Come on guys can't we all just agree that ALL religion is dumb. 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Omerta+ 1,206 Posted November 7, 2017 Because Christianity is the dominant religion of the US and the religion of all the people who do this. Well that certainly contradicts that I make no distinction claim that you made in the last post. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blotsfan 2,112 Posted November 7, 2017 (edited) Come on guys can't we all just agree that ALL religion is dumb. Sure, I agree with that. That's why I want the US to not make laws to cater to any of them. Well that certainly contradicts that I make no distinction claim that you made in the last post. I talk more about the issues that are actually happening. We have a problem with Christians wanting to deny gay people service in the US so I talk about Christians doing it. When we have a problem with Muslims doing it, I'll do the same. I also have a problem with Martians discriminating against gay people. Should I remember to bring that up as well? Edited November 7, 2017 by blotsfan Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Omerta+ 1,206 Posted November 7, 2017 Come on guys can't we all just agree that ALL religion is dumb. I am actually kind of a fan of it to be honest. Not so much in the religious sense where you have to go to church all the time, and abide by all these religious tenants or else your merciful god will send you to hell for a finite sin and a sentence that's infinite. More from a historical standpoint, and Parables about our past what do you like religion or not there's several things in religious texts that suggest we can learn from it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Omerta+ 1,206 Posted November 7, 2017 (edited) Sure, I agree with that. That's why I want the US to not make laws to cater to any of them. I talk more about the issues that are actually happening. We have a problem with Christians wanting to deny gay people service in the US so I talk about Christians doing it. When we have a problem with Muslims doing it, I'll do the same. I also have a problem with Martians discriminating against gay people. Should I remember to bring that up as well? Is your patented hyperbole, when you are confronted with your own hypocrisy. That being said being a martian is now a religion, then yes you should make distinctions. Edited November 7, 2017 by Omerta Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blotsfan 2,112 Posted November 7, 2017 Is your patented hyperbole, when you are confronted with your own hypocrisy. That being said being a martian is now a religion, then yes you should make distinctions. Fine, people of the Martian religion. You get my point. Discrimination against gay people is not ok. I don't give a shit what the religion is. I talk about Christians more because in the United States, Christians are usually the ones doing it (and essentially always the ones doing it in the Capital). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
seanbrock 1,684 Posted November 7, 2017 Of course, but it's still ridiculous that people believe it. I mean studying the Bible or any religion from a historical sense sure. Religion is like the most obvious indicator of the arrogance of humans. I think to believe that we could even comprehend a creator is just so small minded. I think it's also kind of funny that now that we know how vast the universe is that we still some how think we're the only thing that matters. We don't even know what's at the bottom of the oceans lol. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BwareDWare94 723 Posted November 7, 2017 I am not making distinctions between religions. I am saying that no religion, Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism etc should give you the right to discriminate against people. You are literally changing what I am saying to try to fit your argument. So what do you call people with swastika tattoos that chant "blood and soil" and "the Jews will not replace us" that want a white ethnostate and drive cars into people that oppose them? Oh, you mean the ONE guy in Charlottesville? A terrorist. Terrorists are mostly made up of Muslims, despite a handful of incidents. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Omerta+ 1,206 Posted November 7, 2017 Fine, people of the Martian religion. You get my point. Discrimination against gay people is not ok. I don't give a shit what the religion is. I talk about Christians more because in the United States, Christians are usually the ones doing it (and essentially always the ones doing it in the Capital). And that's fine, you can believe whatever you want to. That said don't act like you are unbiased, or that you don't have a special place in your heart for Christians. When you say things like I make no distinction, and then make subsequent statements making distinction specifically towards Christians, and then doing that same cycle two or three times, I don't find it outlandish to call you hypocrite. You use hyperbole to shame the inadequacies of your argument, and try to make it seem outlandish, when the only thing that is outlandish is that you were the one who didn't see what everyone else was talking about. I disagree and premise that Muslims in the US treat gay people better than Christians in the US, but that's a completely different debate and when I'm sure we can agree to disagree on. Just don't act like it comes from a place of non bias. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blotsfan 2,112 Posted November 7, 2017 Oh, you mean the ONE guy in Charlottesville? A terrorist. Terrorists are mostly made up of Muslims, despite a handful of incidents. https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/25/us/tally-of-attacks-in-us-challenges-perceptions-of-top-terror-threat.html?_r=0 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
seanbrock 1,684 Posted November 7, 2017 Oh, you mean the ONE guy in Charlottesville? A terrorist. Terrorists are mostly made up of Muslims, despite a handful of incidents. @ BWare Fascism only serves to give extremists more power and makes their cause seem a lot more justified to the innocents who would suffer as a result of the kinds of things you're talking about. I think a much more effective way to combat Islamic extremism would be to stop bombing in the Middle East. I'd probably hate America if I was an Iraqi who had my home destroyed and family murdered for profit. I'll just repost in case you didn't see it lol Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blotsfan 2,112 Posted November 7, 2017 And that's fine, you can believe whatever you want to. That said don't act like you are unbiased, or that you don't have a special place in your heart for Christians. When you say things like I make no distinction, and then make subsequent statements making distinction specifically towards Christians, and then doing that same cycle two or three times, I don't find it outlandish to call you hypocrite. You use hyperbole to shame the inadequacies of your argument, and try to make it seem outlandish, when the only thing that is outlandish is that you were the one who didn't see what everyone else was talking about. I disagree and premise that Muslims in the US treat gay people better than Christians in the US, but that's a completely different debate and when I'm sure we can agree to disagree on. Just don't act like it comes from a place of non bias. I still don't see what makes you think I have a particular hatred for Christians. They are the people generally doing the discriminating. I'm sure there are homophobic Muslims, and shame on them, but it is idiotic to act like Islam is as influential in the US as Christianity. Muslims make up less than 1% of the US population. Christians make up 70%. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BwareDWare94 723 Posted November 7, 2017 https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/25/us/tally-of-attacks-in-us-challenges-perceptions-of-top-terror-threat.html?_r=0 Our defense agencies are invested in thwarting radical Islamic attacks. How many are stopped before they can even happen? Use a little common sense. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blotsfan 2,112 Posted November 7, 2017 Covered here. A lot are foiled, but a lot of Nazi attacks are too. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thanatos 2,847 Posted November 7, 2017 (edited) I guess that argument would be presupposed onto things. One, do you believe 911 was an inside job? 2, what constitutes domestic terrorism. If you believe domestic terrorism is usually the involvement of a mass casualty, or the intent to have mass casualties against people of the United States for whatever reason, then we can continue this conversation. Or just elaborate on what you think it is. To which becomes do you think 9/11 was an inside job? If you believe it was perpetrated by Islamic extremists, when you consider that the Orlando nightclub shooter and several other domestic terrorist Acts were committed by Islam it's really hard to say that is the truth, unless you were going back several hundred years, or you consider that something like the Civil War to be domestic terrorism. In which case you would be correct, but if the last 40 or 50 years what are the serious domestic terrorism events that you can think of? This is a serious question not being facetious, but which would you qualify as those. Of course you don't have to list them out but there are several ones that are pertinent and large-scale which I think we could all agree would be relevant in this conversation. That being said do all of them in their totality out number several thousand, or at least a few thousand? I absolutely do not think 9/11 was an inside job. The amount of people that were needed to pull that off and then remain silent is just too many. It's hard to find stats on this, precisely because a lot of the governments we've had since 9/11 refuse to call it terrorism if its done by an American. I will say that when I've looked into this, most of the studies are specifically talking about since 9/11, so its not included in the body count. I'm not sure if that's merely because they're trying to not let a single incident skew the results, or if they're claiming the regulations we've put into place since then have worked, or if they're trying to advance an agenda. I think 9/11 is a bit too far for this conversation, unless you think its still possible to do what the hijackers did. More recent history suggests we are in more danger from right-wing extremism than from Islamic terrorism, (21 deadly attacks vs 11 deadly attacks), though honestly neither is all that likely to kill you. Trump's insistence on blocking Muslim extremists isn't because of 9/11 as per his own words- it's because of attacks by Islamic extremists much more recently. And these deadly attacks are deplorable, but its beyond fact that they get way more coverage, than say, the dude in Oregon who fatally stabbed two people for trying to stop him from harassing two young black women who he thought were Muslim. There have been way more deadly attacks from alt right extremism than from Islamic extremism since Trump took office, yet all his rhetoric is about banning Muslims, and not doing anything to combat things like the resurgence of white nationalism and Nazism, which despite Bware's insistence, has absolutely resulted in deaths and violence, and so they absolutely are Nazis, even by his own defintion. It's far easier for the media to advance the narrative that we're in danger from "those other people" than people who look just like me and you. The public would rather believe that they're safe with people with look like them as its more comfortable to believe that. And the truth of course, is that you probably are. As I said, its a very small amount of people that are killed by either. But it drives the media's narrative to promote something that divides us. Make each group of people afraid of "the other guys" and you keep us divided and less able to do something about people who would abuse their power to restrict the rights of people by promoting this false narrative of some sort of major imminent threat from Islamic terrorism. Jihadists have killed 103 people in the United States since 9/11. 51 of those are from a single incident- the Orlando shooting. Each of those deaths is a tragedy. That's still a minuscule amount of people to justify discriminating against an entire bloc. Edited November 7, 2017 by Thanatos Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ATL_Predator+ 1,196 Posted November 7, 2017 Come on guys can't we all just agree that ALL religion is dumb. No. The sheeple that actually don't give a shit about religion but proclaim that they are religious are the worst. People that genuinely care and attempt to live a worthy life by whatever creed they go by are some of the most intelligent people around. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Omerta+ 1,206 Posted November 7, 2017 I absolutely do not think 9/11 was an inside job. The amount of people that were needed to pull that off and then remain silent is just too many. It's hard to find stats on this, precisely because a lot of the governments we've had since 9/11 refuse to call it terrorism if its done by an American. I will say that when I've looked into this, most of the studies are specifically talking about since 9/11, so its not included in the body count. I'm not sure if that's merely because they're trying to not let a single incident skew the results, or if they're claiming the regulations we've put into place since then have worked, or if they're trying to advance an agenda. I think 9/11 is a bit too far for this conversation, unless you think its still possible to do what the hijackers did. More recent history suggests we are in more danger from right-wing extremism than from Islamic terrorism, (21 deadly attacks vs 11 deadly attacks), though honestly neither is all that likely to kill you. Trump's insistence on blocking Muslim extremists isn't because of 9/11 as per his own words- it's because of attacks by Islamic extremists much more recently. And these deadly attacks are deplorable, but its beyond fact that they get way more coverage, than say, the dude in Oregon who fatally stabbed two people for trying to stop him from harassing two young black women who he thought were Muslim. There have been way more deadly attacks from alt right extremism than from Islamic extremism since Trump took office, yet all his rhetoric is about banning Muslims, and not doing anything to combat things like the resurgence of white nationalism and Nazism, which despite Bware's insistence, has absolutely resulted in deaths and violence, and so they absolutely are Nazis, even by his own defintion. It's far easier for the media to advance the narrative that we're in danger from "those other people" than people who look just like me and you. The public would rather believe that they're safe with people with look like them as its more comfortable to believe that. And the truth of course, is that you probably are. As I said, its a very small amount of people that are killed by either. But it drives the media's narrative to promote something that divides us. Make each group of people afraid of "the other guys" and you keep us divided and less able to do something about people who would abuse their power to restrict the rights of people by promoting this false narrative of some sort of major imminent threat from Islamic terrorism. Jihadists have killed 103 people in the United States since 9/11. 51 of those are from a single incident- the Orlando shooting. Each of those deaths is a tragedy. That's still a minuscule amount of people to justify discriminating against an entire bloc. See in this conversation I don't like saying," Well if you exclude 9/11 than the numbers are in favor of this or that" because how do you exclude that? I mean if we are excluding any that has happened while trump has been in office you are basing it off an extremely small sample size. The insanity of this all is that Trump has not been president for a year yet, so anything that we are going to try to evaluate for his tenure in office, is going to be small when you are talking about a statistical analysis. I dont agree with discriminating against ANYONE.. All I was trying to convey is that when Sean says something like," Domestic terrorism has killed more people than Islamic extremists" unless you frame that with a quantifying or qualifying statement than it is categorically false in our lifetimes. One more thing to mention about excluding 9/11 is that it really is unjust in a full picture. AS an example that we can all relate to, lets call it "The CJ2K" effect. I remember when people were saying he was the best in the league and his detractors saying," Well if it weren't for 2 runs his YPG would suck, or his YPC would suck. Well the fact is you cant do that just to suit your argument. Same with Barry Sanders. People point out he had the most runs for losses than any other back when trying to argue for Peyton or whatever, well that is true, but he also made up for it with huge runs later. I say that to say that yes 9/11 would certainly skew the numbers, but does that mean we get to say we discount it? I guess I dont know what people are trying to say when they say this terrorism v.s. that terrorism. Frame it and then we can go from there. Everything else about it being minuscule either way, and the divisive nature of the media, if we can agree it happens by both "sides" than I will agree with that as well. No. The sheeple that actually don't give a shit about religion but proclaim that they are religious are the worst. People that genuinely care and attempt to live a worthy life by whatever creed they go by are some of the most intelligent people around. So much this. Religion is not bad, nor people that follow it. There are plenty of good religious people out there who just happen to believe in a creator. I still have not figured out how that is small minded to be honest. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
seanbrock 1,684 Posted November 8, 2017 Of course there are good people who are religious. I think religion was originally created by people who understood very little about their own existence and the world/universe around them.We don't know how old the universe is or even how big it is but we do know Earth is about 4 billion years old but the only thing that God created that he gives a fuck about is us? Ok lol. Later it was manipulated for power structures to control people. I think it's dumb because it comes from a perspective that places people at the center of everything. I think it's definitely possible that there is a creator or some sort of driving force in the universe but to think that people could understand it is silly. We don't know shit. To top it all off we apply human characters flaws like jealousy to a supposed diety. Religion is dumb. You aren't dumb per say if you believe in it. You're probably either highly indoctrinated or you just don't want to deal with the possibility that this is it and we really don't matter very much in the grand scheme of everything. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Omerta+ 1,206 Posted November 8, 2017 Of course there are good people who are religious. I think religion was originally created by people who understood very little about their own existence and the world/universe around them.We don't know how old the universe is or even how big it is but we do know Earth is about 4 billion years old but the only thing that God created that he gives a fuck about is us? Ok lol. Later it was manipulated for power structures to control people. I think it's dumb because it comes from a perspective that places people at the center of everything. I think it's definitely possible that there is a creator or some sort of driving force in the universe but to think that people could understand it is silly. We don't know shit. To top it all off we apply human characters flaws like jealousy to a supposed diety. Religion is dumb. You aren't dumb per say if you believe in it. You're probably either highly indoctrinated or you just don't want to deal with the possibility that this is it and we really don't matter very much in the grand scheme of everything. Maybe there is nothing after this, but how do you know that for sure? What if we really are the center of this universe? Do you know enough to say that we're not? Not saying we are, but it is awfully hard to say that if we're not, then what it is? Is anything? There are entirely too many questions about this universe that none of us understand for somebody to be saying that believing in a single Creator, who placed us at the center of the universe is stupid. We may not be, but then again, we could be. How do you know? I keep asking, because I think it's insane to assume you believe that you are right when you have to acknowledge that the possibility of us being the center is that of the same possibility that we're not. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
seanbrock 1,684 Posted November 8, 2017 (edited) It just doesn't make sense to me and there is enough in religious texts that has been proven wrong and that just simply contradicts itself. The conclusions I've come to are my own that are just based off logic. I mean, what's the other point of view? God told somebody some stuff a long time ago so it's gotta be true? I'll stick with my own logic personally. I mean, the only evidence that the universe revolves around people and/or Earth are religious texts written by people who knew very little compared to what we know today and people who very clearly had an agenda. If someone told you a story that made no sense and you knew had to be bullshit would you believe it because you couldn't prove it was wrong? Probably not. Edited November 8, 2017 by seanbrock Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Omerta+ 1,206 Posted November 8, 2017 Would it be fair to say you don't know much about religion? There's a bit more to it than you mentioned, I think if you knew a bit more about it you might appreciate it a little more. That being said, you may not, that's perfectly okay. You're more than welcome to stand by your own logic, I just don't understand have the bashing of a religion when you really don't know much about it. I mean unless you are scriptural scholar, and which case I retract my point. I just think generalizing something like religion because you don't believe in it, and you think your own assertions are correct, why does that mean it's okay to say that religion is bullshit? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GA_Eagle 595 Posted November 8, 2017 I just think generalizing something like religion because you don't believe in it, and you think your own assertions are correct, why does that mean it's okay to say that religion is bullshit? I mean, why is it ok to say anything? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites