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2020 Democratic Primary Race

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A radical Muslim terrorist beheads a woman and kills two others in an attack at a church in France today. Similar recent attacks in France and continued violence perpetrated by radicalized Muslims in foreign countries. This nonsense has to end. It has to no longer be tolerated by the rest of the world. We must welcome Islam because of the majority of non-violent, non-radicalized Muslims, but we do not have to accept this violence as a reality. The rest of the world has to collectively eradicate this nonsense by any means possible. Even at the cost of upsetting others.

Edited by BwareDWare94

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On 10/29/2020 at 10:01 AM, BwareDWare94 said:

A radical Muslim terrorist beheads a woman and kills two others in an attack at a church in France today. Similar recent attacks in France and continued violence perpetrated by radicalized Muslims in foreign countries. This nonsense has to end. It has to no longer be tolerated by the rest of the world. We must welcome Islam because of the majority of non-violent, non-radicalized Muslims, but we do not have to accept this violence as a reality. The rest of the world has to collectively eradicate this nonsense by any means possible. Even at the cost of upsetting others.

What actions do you suggest we take as a world?

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On 9/11/2020 at 9:02 PM, Thanatos said:

I think the level of violence depends on the results. Landslide either way- sure, what SteVo said. If its close and either side thinks the other has rigged it, (and lets be honest Trump is already claiming it will be rigged, he's going to stir his followers up if its close), I think we're going to see a big outbreak of violence.

There's no way Trump is going to win the popular vote, IMO, but he could still win enough electoral votes that it wouldn't matter.

Nightmare scenario is Trump is ahead on election night and declares victory and then Biden pulls ahead after all the mail-in ballots are counted, (which is a damn likely scenario, since Trump has convinced half his base COVID isn't dangerous, far more Dems will vote by mail in than GOP), and Trump cries foul. I'm not sure Trump would accept a SC decision that gave Biden the presidency- and for that matter, I am also not sure Biden would either the other way around, although Biden would have far less power to do anything.

So uh yeah. We're here. Trump declares victory on Tuesday night, even sends out emails to his supporters saying he won Pennsylvania, which its now clear he has lost. Election still isn't called by anyone except for Decision Desk, but its inevitable at this point. I think the networks just have PTSD from 2016. Ironically Fox and the AP called AZ really early, and Trump still had a path to a win in AZ when they did. Seems the AZ website had a glitch for a few hours that wrongly said they had counted 84% of precincts when 74% was counted and that was what lead to the early call. It looks like Biden will hold in AZ, just barely, as Trump is not on pace to catch him at the moment. Plus, Biden is simply increasing his lead in PA and his shaky lead in AZ doesn't matter at all if PA holds, which I don't see how it won't.

Biggest surprises was the relative landslide, at least in their terms, for Trump in FL- seems he convinced a great deal of Latinos Biden was socialist- and fucking Georgia flipping blue. Stacey Abrams should immediately be put in charge of DNC voter outreach efforts. 

It does not look like the Dems will take the Senate, unless they somehow win both GA runoffs, (about a 1 in 100 shot, if you ask me), so Biden is going to be limited in what he can do. But we can at least start trying to fight back COVID and Trump's dismantling of regulations regarding climate change, including rejoining the Paris Accords. 

There has been relatively little violence and I think that's due to the trickle here. If it had been declared on election night that Biden won, I think it would have all come out on one night, but the slow drip drip drip of bad news for Trump has given many of them time to sit and think and not act rashly. 

Ironically here, if Biden wins GA, AZ, PA, and NV, and Trump takes NC (and AK, but we assume he has AK), then the total will be 306 to 232, which is literally the EXACT outcome of the 2016 election in reverse. Poetic justice as the universe rights itself.

A small part of me was rooting for a 269-269 split which would lead to utter chaos, especially if DC had to break a tie in the House. But better that Trump and his cronies are gone.

Edited by Thanatos

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Miscellaneous thoughts, in no particular order:

  • Assuming current results hold, Biden held all Clinton states from 2016 and flipped all three blue-wall states, Nebraska's 2nd C.D., Arizona, and Georgia (!). That's a very solid victory.
  • The polls were about four points off yet again. Is Trump just poll-proof? Did some Biden supporters not get out to vote because of Covid or other reasons? I look forward to statistical analysis on this in the coming months.
  • Democrats definitely underperformed in Congress. The biggest question moving forward for them is why and how to fix it. Voters across the country may have been tired of Trump, but they're not ready to embrace liberalism just yet.
  • What happens to the Republican Party now? Do they embrace Trumpism or resort to a more dignified conservatism a la McCain/Romney? Trump isn't going away. His Tweets will hold political power, for better or worse. And no, Trump running in 2024 is not out of the question.
  • #PrayForPhil
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54 minutes ago, SteVo said:

Miscellaneous thoughts, in no particular order:

  • Assuming current results hold, Biden held all Clinton states from 2016 and flipped all three blue-wall states, Nebraska's 2nd C.D., Arizona, and Georgia (!). That's a very solid victory.
  • The polls were about four points off yet again. Is Trump just poll-proof? Did some Biden supporters not get out to vote because of Covid or other reasons? I look forward to statistical analysis on this in the coming months.
  • Democrats definitely underperformed in Congress. The biggest question moving forward for them is why and how to fix it. Voters across the country may have been tired of Trump, but they're not ready to embrace liberalism just yet.
  • What happens to the Republican Party now? Do they embrace Trumpism or resort to a more dignified conservatism a la McCain/Romney? Trump isn't going away. His Tweets will hold political power, for better or worse. And no, Trump running in 2024 is not out of the question.
  • #PrayForPhil

Regardless of what anyone wants to say , Trump realigned the Republican Party and probably (in the long run) it’s for the better. Trump was hardly conservative on most issues. Way more populist / moderate on most things except COVId which definitely sunk his campaign. 
 

im just afraid Democrats view beating Trump as some huge win and thus stop fighting for real change. If they go into 2024 with the same strategy , they will lose. It wasn’t a huge gain, but Trump / GOP had 5 million more votes than last time and siphoned more of the votes from people of color. Not great signs for Democrats. Especially considering there was no real blue wave like predicted. 

This was basically 2016 all over again just with role reversal. Anti Hillary voters got Trump elected, anti Trump voters got Biden elected. Data is preliminary naturally, but I think this is supported by polling showing that roughly 2/3 of all Biden voters are saying that “ he isn’t Trump “ is their #1 reason for voting for him. You’ll get some of that just voting down party line but roughly 25% voted for Trump just because he isn’t Joe Biden. That’s a massive difference. 
 

Americans are still searching for somebody who will change the game. 

Edited by Favre4Ever

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2 hours ago, SteVo said:

Miscellaneous thoughts, in no particular order:

  • Assuming current results hold, Biden held all Clinton states from 2016 and flipped all three blue-wall states, Nebraska's 2nd C.D., Arizona, and Georgia (!). That's a very solid victory.
  • The polls were about four points off yet again. Is Trump just poll-proof? Did some Biden supporters not get out to vote because of Covid or other reasons? I look forward to statistical analysis on this in the coming months.
  • Democrats definitely underperformed in Congress. The biggest question moving forward for them is why and how to fix it. Voters across the country may have been tired of Trump, but they're not ready to embrace liberalism just yet.
  • What happens to the Republican Party now? Do they embrace Trumpism or resort to a more dignified conservatism a la McCain/Romney? Trump isn't going away. His Tweets will hold political power, for better or worse. And no, Trump running in 2024 is not out of the question.
  • #PrayForPhil

Honestly I dont think I will ever trust the polls again. They were off by far more than 4 in many races. Susan Collins didnt have a poll showing her leading since July, yet she won by 6+.

It's going to literally be the same EC victory Trump claimed was a landslide, lol. Kinda hilarious. 

I'm not sure about the liberal thing. A lot of it was losing house districts in deep red areas that there was a huge backlash in 2018 that led Dems to win.

Trump reportedly already said he was going to run in 2024. We'll deal with that when it comes.

Lol, Phil. He's probably off spouting conspiracy nonsense somewhere.

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1 hour ago, Favre4Ever said:

Regardless of what anyone wants to say , Trump realigned the Republican Party and probably (in the long run) it’s for the better. Trump was hardly conservative on most issues. Way more populist / moderate on most things except COVId which definitely sunk his campaign. 
 

im just afraid Democrats view beating Trump as some huge win and thus stop fighting for real change. If they go into 2024 with the same strategy , they will lose. It wasn’t a huge gain, but Trump / GOP had 5 million more votes than last time and siphoned more of the votes from people of color. Not great signs for Democrats. Especially considering there was no real blue wave like predicted. 

This was basically 2016 all over again just with role reversal. Anti Hillary voters got Trump elected, anti Trump voters got Biden elected. Data is preliminary naturally, but I think this is supported by polling showing that roughly 2/3 of all Biden voters are saying that “ he isn’t Trump “ is their #1 reason for voting for him. You’ll get some of that just voting down party line but roughly 25% voted for Trump just because he isn’t Joe Biden. That’s a massive difference. 
 

Americans are still searching for somebody who will change the game. 

Just having more votes in a election with record turnout is not really a sign of anything. Was there more GOP % wise than in 2016?

Sure its a massive difference, its because Dems are two parties working together against one party they think is a greater evil than either of their parties. The progressive wing is happy Trump is beaten, but they are not happy that it was Biden who did it. 

Yang/Tulsi 2024 please. In either order, don't care.

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1 hour ago, Thanatos said:

Just having more votes in a election with record turnout is not really a sign of anything. Was there more GOP % wise than in 2016?

Sure its a massive difference, its because Dems are two parties working together against one party they think is a greater evil than either of their parties. The progressive wing is happy Trump is beaten, but they are not happy that it was Biden who did it. 

Yang/Tulsi 2024 please. In either order, don't care.

I think it's a huge sign of something. Both sides were extremely motivated to vote. And I do think it's going to be easier for the GOP to maintain some of that motivation going into 2024. I could totally be wrong, I mean... we're 4 years out, a lot can happen Ha. But people came out in droves to vote against Trump. I don't totally understand what you are asking about the GOP %, but they did have massive registration surges going into the election (as did Democrats). 

I'm glad progressives could take a back seat to get rid of Trump, but at some point they need to fight back against the Biden's of the party. As mentioned previously, I do think Trump has moved Republicans considerably towards the middle of the political spectrum. Voter wise, I am talking. Obviously there are still super deep conservatives out there and super right politicians as well. There is a huge political shift / realignment happening from a voter level in my eyes across the board. 

AOC just did an interview with the NY Times and was not exactly optimistic about how progressives are seen within government, so again.. I say edge Republicans until they prove they are indeed moving further right again.

“The last two years have been pretty hostile. Externally, we’ve been winning. Externally, there’s been a ton of support, but internally, it’s been extremely hostile to anything that even smells progressive.”

How both parties go into 2024 is going to be very interesting to me. I don't think democrats can rely on this corporatist, almost Republican, model they beat Trump with. And if progressives ever find their spines, there will be a reckoning. The GOP on the other hand has to pick if they follow this Trumpian centrist / populist type or revert back to super hardcore right. Hardcore right is obviously the wrong choice.

Politico has a list of Biden cabinet "frontrunners" and I am not going to lie... it scares me seeing some of those names. Lots of them LOVE war. Doesn't mean anything is going to happen, but... I am not confident. Only positive I take out of this moment is that I think Biden brings the overall fever of the country down... back into it's sanity (which is ironic, considering he is losing his). It will be nice to have a more "presidential" President. I also expect a big 100 days, but again... I don't want to set myself up for disappointment. 

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3 minutes ago, Favre4Ever said:

I think it's a huge sign of something. Both sides were extremely motivated to vote. And I do think it's going to be easier for the GOP to maintain some of that motivation going into 2024. I could totally be wrong, I mean... we're 4 years out, a lot can happen Ha. But people came out in droves to vote against Trump. I don't totally understand what you are asking about the GOP %, but they did have massive registration surges going into the election (as did Democrats). 

I'm glad progressives could take a back seat to get rid of Trump, but at some point they need to fight back against the Biden's of the party. As mentioned previously, I do think Trump has moved Republicans considerably towards the middle of the political spectrum. Voter wise, I am talking. Obviously there are still super deep conservatives out there and super right politicians as well. There is a huge political shift / realignment happening from a voter level in my eyes across the board. 

AOC just did an interview with the NY Times and was not exactly optimistic about how progressives are seen within government, so again.. I say edge Republicans until they prove they are indeed moving further right again.

“The last two years have been pretty hostile. Externally, we’ve been winning. Externally, there’s been a ton of support, but internally, it’s been extremely hostile to anything that even smells progressive.”

How both parties go into 2024 is going to be very interesting to me. I don't think democrats can rely on this corporatist, almost Republican, model they beat Trump with. And if progressives ever find their spines, there will be a reckoning. The GOP on the other hand has to pick if they follow this Trumpian centrist / populist type or revert back to super hardcore right. Hardcore right is obviously the wrong choice.

Politico has a list of Biden cabinet "frontrunners" and I am not going to lie... it scares me seeing some of those names. Lots of them LOVE war. Doesn't mean anything is going to happen, but... I am not confident. Only positive I take out of this moment is that I think Biden brings the overall fever of the country down... back into it's sanity (which is ironic, considering he is losing his). It will be nice to have a more "presidential" President. I also expect a big 100 days, but again... I don't want to set myself up for disappointment. 

I agree here almost completely, including on the list. Do not like. Really hoping they have that list wrong. Dems absolutely could just sit back now and I really hope they do not. This election was about harm mitigation. I think a lot less people will die now that Biden is in. Or rather once he starts working. Its by no means a progressive victory. This election was to stop a great evil from winning, but it did not even come close to defeating it.

I'm saying Im less concerned about raw numbers when way more people voted. Did more % of the country vote for Trump than last time? That would concern me.

Edited by Thanatos

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Both sides have seen increases to their popular vote %, Biden over Clinton by roughly 2.5 I think and Trump by 1.5%. Gap between Trump/Hillary was 2% in Hillary's favor. Biden is ahead by 3%. 3rd Party presidential support very very low compared to 2016 also which is worth noting.

So I guess I see what you're saying. I would still contend though that overall I think it will be easier for republicans to retains some of those votes compared to the democratic party. But we will see, loooong way to go. and like you, I am pretty sick and tired of polls. lol.

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@Thanatos way late on "what should we as the world do about radical Muslim violence?"

My answer--whatever it takes, even if that requires an ethical compromise. We have got to live in a world without this nonsense.

On the election: super surprised. I honestly thought a Trump landslide was imminent--apparently less people are terrified of leftist radicalism than we realized. We're not going to descend into that so long as Republicans hold the Senate, thank goodness.

 

I'm not upset about Biden, but Kamala Harris is every bit as terrible of a human being as Donald Trump. She could be really dangerous. I really wish it was Tulsi up there. 

I want to see a real investigation into voter fraud. Let's just find out how much occured and who it most benefited. Either we find out we have to address a real problem, or Trump looks like even more of an idiot than he already does. It's a win-win proposition.

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31 minutes ago, BwareDWare94 said:

@Thanatos way late on "what should we as the world do about radical Muslim violence?"

My answer--whatever it takes, even if that requires an ethical compromise. We have got to live in a world without this nonsense.

On the election: super surprised. I honestly thought a Trump landslide was imminent--apparently less people are terrified of leftist radicalism than we realized. We're not going to descend into that so long as Republicans hold the Senate, thank goodness.

 

I'm not upset about Biden, but Kamala Harris is every bit as terrible of a human being as Donald Trump. She could be really dangerous. I really wish it was Tulsi up there. 

I want to see a real investigation into voter fraud. Let's just find out how much occured and who it most benefited. Either we find out we have to address a real problem, or Trump looks like even more of an idiot than he already does. It's a win-win proposition.

No one's going to descend into it even with Harris, the idea that Biden was a radical leftist was an utterly insane attack by Trump. By all means go investigating. There's nothing there and no one thinks there was any widescale fraud outside of right wingers. We used the same systems we did in 2016 when he won and they didnt complain then.

Re: Muslim extremism: I was hoping for a more concrete answer on what to do about it. "Whatever it takes, even if it requires an ethical compromise" Im giving you the benefit of the doubt but that sounds really really really bad. Like we can do something horribly wrong to stop it.

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This is just sad at this point. The Trump team meant to book an event at the Four Seasons Hotel (we assume) but accidentally did it at Four Seasons Landscaping. Which is just a landscaping shop. Next to a adult book store called Fantasy Island. Across the street from a crematorium. Good god. Just concede man. https://imgur.com/gallery/j0cBnNh

Edited by Thanatos

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You can remove the benefit of the doubt. I'm tired of public decapitations within horrific terror attacks, exploding human beings in crowds, and mass slaughter of Christians at worship in foreign countries. I'm ready to see the difficult decision made to do what it takes to rid our world of this nonsense. It's 2020. This is not an acceptable reality of the human condition.

Nobody capable of critical thought ever believed that Joe Biden is a leftist radical. I agree with you there.

As for voter fraud, I also agree with you that there isn't a significant amount. So lets confirm that and make Trump and all his allies lose all credibility.

There are some things that cannot happen moving forward, though. No court packing. No removal of the electoral college. We cannot be under indefinite single-party rule. If Democrats even try, we have to fight it with all we have. I expect even reasonable democrats to agree with that take.

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Get rid of the Electoral College.

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4 minutes ago, SteVo said:

Get rid of the Electoral College.

No. It ensures that every part of the country has a say in the Presidential Election. It works as intended.

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Bware, you may just your way with extremist muslims. Biden's rumored cabinet front runners are very pro war/conflict. Biden has been a lot more... firm? on engaging the enemy, regardless of who it may be. Doesn't mean anything will happen per se. I hope he's learned from backing stupid wars like going into Iraq.... But only time will tell.

In other news. Biden  is supposed to announce his COVID team tomorrow, which... will say a lot. Supposedly Obama's surgeon general (Vivek Murphy) will be co-chairing the committee. He's promised economic recovery as one of his four pillars / priorities (with COVID response, racial disparity, and climate change). I am interested to hear how he/his team of scientists propose we both get stronger on the virus and the economy.

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So long as Joe understands that a nationwide lockdown/stay-at-home order simply will not work because nobody will listen. I hope for a nationwide mask mandate, though.

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5 hours ago, BwareDWare94 said:

No. It ensures that every part of the country has a say in the Presidential Election. It works as intended.

Wrong. It has outlived its purpose. If you want everyone's vote to count as equal, then 1 person = 1 vote. Pretty simple. Ranked choice voting would be ideal, but anything is better than the Electoral College.

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9 hours ago, BwareDWare94 said:

You can remove the benefit of the doubt. I'm tired of public decapitations within horrific terror attacks, exploding human beings in crowds, and mass slaughter of Christians at worship in foreign countries. I'm ready to see the difficult decision made to do what it takes to rid our world of this nonsense. It's 2020. This is not an acceptable reality of the human condition.

Nobody capable of critical thought ever believed that Joe Biden is a leftist radical. I agree with you there.

As for voter fraud, I also agree with you that there isn't a significant amount. So lets confirm that and make Trump and all his allies lose all credibility.

There are some things that cannot happen moving forward, though. No court packing. No removal of the electoral college. We cannot be under indefinite single-party rule. If Democrats even try, we have to fight it with all we have. I expect even reasonable democrats to agree with that take.

What concrete action are you suggesting we take to stop radical Islam? Bombing them indiscriminately? Executing all of them? What? That's what I'm asking.

We have confirmed it. Multiple times. Yall wanna waste more of the Trump campaign's money, go for it. As long as he still has money to pay for it.

No court packing? The hypocrisy of this, lmao. What in the fuck do you call pushing through a SC justice two weeks before an election after specifically saying for the past four years they wouldn't do just that? What do you call refusing to let Obama appoint ANYONE the last two years of his presidency to the federal judiciary so there would be tons of open spots for the GOP to pack the courts? It's not court packing, its court UN packing.

The EC should absolutely be abolished. The idea that it protects small states is no longer true. It elevates small states too much. Instead of asking what NY, CA, TX, and FL want, instead we ignore any non-swing state and focus the smaller swing ones.

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3 hours ago, BwareDWare94 said:

So long as Joe understands that a nationwide lockdown/stay-at-home order simply will not work because nobody will listen. I hope for a nationwide mask mandate, though.

It's all stupid to whine about because the Pres doesn't have the authority to do it anyway. The states have to do that. And they should.

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7 hours ago, Favre4Ever said:

Bware, you may just your way with extremist muslims. Biden's rumored cabinet front runners are very pro war/conflict. Biden has been a lot more... firm? on engaging the enemy, regardless of who it may be. Doesn't mean anything will happen per se. I hope he's learned from backing stupid wars like going into Iraq.... But only time will tell.

In other news. Biden  is supposed to announce his COVID team tomorrow, which... will say a lot. Supposedly Obama's surgeon general (Vivek Murphy) will be co-chairing the committee. He's promised economic recovery as one of his four pillars / priorities (with COVID response, racial disparity, and climate change). I am interested to hear how he/his team of scientists propose we both get stronger on the virus and the economy.

You get rid of the virus and then jump start the economy. The economy goes nowhere as long as COVID is rampant.

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19 hours ago, Thanatos said:

You get rid of the virus and then jump start the economy. The economy goes nowhere as long as COVID is rampant.

Ya, that’s what I’m worried about. Depression is up, suicides are up, domestic abuse is up, child abuse is up... how far we are going to go to “ get rid of the virus “ is going to be interesting. 
 

Especially when we’ve gotten so much better at testing and treating coronavirus . During the first spike, the US had 2000 deaths a day. During this last spike we were at 800 a day. 
 

The new team won’t need to implement a plan until late January though so who knows what we’re looking at by then 

EDIT: And let me clarify. I am not saying do nothing different / extra. I would assume a nationwide mask mandate is going to be heavily considered / put in place. Only thing with that is, I think it would be mostly for show. I know Iowa is a small state, but we've been ravaged by the virus... We don't have a mask mandate, but I'd say a good 85-90% of people wear masks anyway pretty much everywhere. I am interested to see what the plan is beyond that though. The CDC has said that the two biggest places for transmission are work and small gatherings of friends & family.

What are are gonna do? National lockdown? Tell neighbors and others to go full stasi and report people to the police? Not saying that's gonna happen,. just reiterating that I would like to know what logically comes after nationwide mask mandate.

Edited by Favre4Ever

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