Black former NFL coaches say Rooney rule is broken

[OSUViking 505]

I think the Rooney Rule itself is inherently racist and unfair to black coaches. I see it as the equivalent to saying to a black coach, "You're not good enough to get the job on your own, so we'll force them to at least give you a chance." That is racist. It's a stupid rule that should be done away with.

[oochymp 2,393]

There is no problem.

 

Are you seriously suggesting that a multi-billion dollar business doesn't hire someone they think is better than a white guy because of the color of his skin?

I think coaching in the NFL is a good ol boys club, not necessarily racial, but it does make it difficult to crack into, how many times do you see a team zero in on a head coaching candidate within a day of firing the past coach? they're either not really doing due diligence or they're planning who to hire before the first guy's out the door

 

 

Why don't we make teams look at a white QB before they look at a black QB? Or a white RB before a black RB? 67% of people in the NFL are black, if your stat is correct, clearly there must be a problem going on, since only 1/8 of the people in America are black. Obviously, the white population is under-represented and we need to put forward incentives to make sure certain teams don't refuse to consider a guy because he's white.

I think you're taking my point the wrong way, because 67% of the league is black (and I found about a half dozen sources that all used that number, so I think it's reliable) they're clearly more involved in the sport, so I think it's reasonable to expect that to be reflected in the leadership, the reverse just seems odd, but it is worth pointing out that at lower levels of coaching

 

 

Come on, man. We're never going to get past the racial divide if we keep making incentives for people based on the color of their skin.

I do agree with this wholeheartedly, despite the way my posts make my opinion appear I really don't like any of these sorts of rules, I think it takes a lot more to really change the culture, and I'm not necessarily saying that culture is race driven, but the result definitely creates that perception

Edited February 1, 2013 by oochymp

[SteVo+ 3,702]

I'm no expert in genetics but I don't have to be to see the absurdity of this post.

 

So you're telling me if we take a random sample (of sufficient size) of fair representation of all races on Earth and put them through various physical and intellectual tests, each race will perform the same? That's pure ignorance. All men may have been created equal, but it is no longer so.

[Omerta+ 1,206]

I think here in about a decade there is going to be a huge shift and white people will be the minority in coaching. I hope this rule is still around as some sort of novelty.

[oochymp 2,393]

I think here in about a decade there is going to be a huge shift and white people will be the minority in coaching. I hope this rule is still around as some sort of novelty.

the league is definitely headed that way, the numbers do show a huge growth in minority assistant coaches, which will make the pipeline better, honestly I think the biggest issue with the Rooney Rule is the emphasis it puts on the figure head of head coaches, unless and until minorities are getting full opportunity to climb the ranks you're going to have a lot of trouble getting enough qualified candidates to really make a visible difference

[Thanatos 2,847]

I think coaching in the NFL is a good ol boys club, not necessarily racial, but it does make it difficult to crack into, how many times do you see a team zero in on a head coaching candidate within a day of firing the past coach? they're either not really doing due diligence or they're planning who to hire before the first guy's out the door.

 

Or maybe they were doing searches during the season. The Eagles knew they were going to fire Reid as soon as they hit the 8 losses mark. But, to clarify, you are suggesting that they are ignoring people on a basis that isn't racial- so then why the need for any sort of Rooney rule?

 

I think you're taking my point the wrong way, because 67% of the league is black (and I found about a half dozen sources that all used that number, so I think it's reliable) they're clearly more involved in the sport, so I think it's reasonable to expect that to be reflected in the leadership, the reverse just seems odd, but it is worth pointing out that at lower levels of coaching.

 

But to immediately jump to a racially-motivated answer to the discrepancy is wrong. There are many other factors that could explain this.

[Dutch 874]

So you're telling me if we take a random sample (of sufficient size) of fair representation of all races on Earth and put them through various physical and intellectual tests, each race will perform the same? That's pure ignorance. All men may have been created equal, but it is no longer so.

 

 

The statement "All races are not equal" is ignorance in itself. I know some white people that are faster than black people, I've seen slow jamaicans and africans, I've seen dumb asians, I've seen smart blondes. Your statement doesn't hold true to every scenario so it's false. It's not based on race, it's based on the persons individual attributes and THAT's what makes people different (as individuals); not race brah. Generalizing and categorizing races is racist itself.

Edited February 1, 2013 by dutchff7

[Omerta+ 1,206]

the league is definitely headed that way, the numbers do show a huge growth in minority assistant coaches, which will make the pipeline better, honestly I think the biggest issue with the Rooney Rule is the emphasis it puts on the figure head of head coaches, unless and until minorities are getting full opportunity to climb the ranks you're going to have a lot of trouble getting enough qualified candidates to really make a visible difference

 

I actually dont believe the pipelines were bad, it was just a matter of bad timing which is correcting itself.

[seanbrock 1,684]

So you're telling me if we take a random sample (of sufficient size) of fair representation of all races on Earth and put them through various physical and intellectual tests, each race will perform the same? That's pure ignorance. All men may have been created equal, but it is no longer so.

There are a lot of factors that go into somebodies intelligence or athletic ability. If you grow up in the hood playing basketball everyday and you work out, chances are you're going to be a good basketball player. Just so happens that black people live in the hood and play basketball everday. On the other hand if you're rich and go to an elite private school chances are good you receiving a better education. Hell, if you go to public school in a richer area or maybe just not a poor area you're receiving a better education than say the kid in the hood or some poor kid in a rural community. Genetically speaking there is no such thing as race.

 

http://wupa.wustl.edu/record_archive/1998/10-15-98/articles/races.html

Edited February 2, 2013 by seanbrock

[DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241]

Of course it is broke, it was completely retarded to start with.

 

I'm not gonna respond to the first half of this sentence, but the second one made me post on a thread that I really wanted noting to do with.

 

Could this be any more ignorant? I mean, really?

[Omerta+ 1,206]

I'm not gonna respond to the first half of this sentence, but the second one made me post on a thread that I really wanted noting to do with.

 

Could this be any more ignorant? I mean, really?

 

How is it ignorant ? Explain that part to me and I will do my best to try and answer.

[DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241]

How is it ignorant ? Explain that part to me and I will do my best to try and answer.

 

By, "retarded to start with", you really think that this rule being put into place was an awful idea from the start?

 

If so, how is that not ignorant?

[oochymp 2,393]

Or maybe they were doing searches during the season. The Eagles knew they were going to fire Reid as soon as they hit the 8 losses mark. But, to clarify, you are suggesting that they are ignoring people on a basis that isn't racial- so then why the need for any sort of Rooney rule?

 

But to immediately jump to a racially-motivated answer to the discrepancy is wrong. There are many other factors that could explain this.

to your first point, doing searches during the season, that would be what I referred to as looking for the next coach while the current coach is still under contract

 

to your second point, even if the motivation isn't racial, the effect certainly is, which creates a perception that the league has to do something about if only for PR purposes

 

and to Ngata, the pipeline issue is definitely correcting itself, there are far more black assistant/position coaches now than there were 10-15 years ago

[Omerta+ 1,206]

By, "retarded to start with", you really think that this rule being put into place was an awful idea from the start?

 

If so, how is that not ignorant?

 

Ok my apologies for making you post. However be prepared to read because this will be long winded and is why I avoided posting it in its entirety.

 

Also I would like to preface this by saying I am a huge fan of the idea of more black coaches and at this very moment I take Ray Horton over John Harbaugh. It is also my belief that there is a myriad of black coaches who are going to be damn good head coaches...and fast. I already said that I think in ten years we are going to see a swing and nearly a 50/50 split and it has zero to do with the Rooney Rule. No disrespect to Mr. Rooney as I think his intentions were great, but with everything once you put it into the hands of bureaucrats it is bound to get fucked up.

 

The reason I say it is retarded is because I believe it was an unnecessary issue that was going to correct itself on the same timetable that if the rule was not implemented. I believe all it has done is create controversy that there should not be, and I find it insulting to think that you are mandated to interview a black coach. If you really think that they are incapable of doing it on their own then one of two things is happening. A.) You are retarded (leaning towards this.) or B.) They don't deserve to be head coach due to their coaching prowess.

 

Now as to how it is not ignorant in my opinion. I have said repeatedly that it would correct itself in time. I believe that.

 

When would you say that Football has become what it is? The 50's...maybe 60's...or was it SB 1. I think this is paramount when looking at this from an objective standpoint because that is when we began to see black athletes start to seriously break through the color barrier in an impactful way. Guys like Jim Parker, Art Shell, Herb Adderly, Jim Brown, Deacon Jones, Paul Warfield, and many others started to change peoples mind about black men in professional sports. When you look at it that is also when a huge culture shift in the country started. Not saying that on caused the other because there is really no tangible proof either way, but I don't dismiss it as coincidence either.

 

Ok so with that said we will call those gentleman the forefathers. When these guys showed the league that black athletes were more than just the workhorses for the white show horses the cogs began moving. That was a stigma that is undeniable occurred a lot in those days, and it was wrong. You will get no argument from me on that point. Me and Oochy have references a pipeline and this is where I think that the pipeline had its humble beginnings. What I mean by this is lets say that this started in the 60's.

 

If that is true then looking at it the career of those that made a difference in the sport had careers that lasted until the 70's, so they built on top of the foundation that the forefathers left them. And then the 70's roled around and that is when you saw quantum leaps in the game as far as color goes. That is when guys like Ronnie Lott, Roger Craig, Doug Williams, Jerry Rice, LT, and so on saw these guys on TV. And we all know what happens after those guys.

 

Now in regards to coaching the players from the 70's when black people started to get real credibility as professional football player's, it started to snowball. When you look around the league at guys like Dick Lebeau, Tom Coughlin, BB, and so on, how many years were they stashed away trying to get their "chops" ? Most played before that and got recognized and BEGAN coaching in the 70's and 80's. It took time for them to build their credibility as solid position coaches or coaches at the collegiate level. Most of them only got their shot recently as coaches in the late 90's and early 2000's.

 

So when looking at the athletes who are going to retire to become coaches they are going to have to put in time and we are seeing that now and it is coming to fruition. Guy like Perry Fewell, Marvin Lewis, Romeo Crennel, Lovie SMith, Ray Horton, Hue Jackson, Teryl Austin, Wilbert Montgomery, Tony Dungy, are all on that cusp or have reached the cusp of people seeing the work they have put in as position coaches and are serious contenders for Head coaching vacancies. So all of that is to say that is taking time for them to make the transition from players in the 80's, to retiree's in the 90's, and building resume's as coaches in the late 90's till now. It is not something that happens overnight when people have billion dollar franchises they are going to hand the keys to the franchise to, they want to make sure that they have a large enough sample size of what they can do before they hand over the reigns. When you don't you get Cam Cameron and his 1-15 stint with the Dolphins.

 

Why did it take so long ? Yeah race played a part in it but you also have to look at legendary coaching trees and the fact this is a copycat league. Owners wanted to see who their coaching tree was much like references on a resume. People wanted to see names like Gilliam, Coryell, Walsh, Phillips, and so on to know that they had the pedigree. That is remnants left over form the archaic annuls left over from football history that really have no bearing on the game anymore. Now that owners have confidence in ex players turned coaches who are African Americans after having seen successful examples we are going to see a huge shift in minority hirings in the next decade imo.

 

So yes I think it was retarded by way of being completely unnecessary. This was going to happen regardless imo without it having to be mandated. All it has done is create this media shit storm.

 

And that does not even broach the topic of the ones who want no part of it at the moment. People would hire guys like Deion, Jerry, Barry, Warren, Sharpe, and so on in a heartbeat if they wanted the job, but most are happy being analysts. That is a whole other argument though.

 

Feel free to pick this train of though apart, but it is the one I have until someone can come up with something that supplants is, but I am open to it.

Edited February 2, 2013 by Ngata_Chance

[Dutch 874]

I know that makes probably for an interesting read but god dam... TL;DR. Will later.

[Guest Phailadelphia]

So you're telling me if we take a random sample (of sufficient size) of fair representation of all races on Earth and put them through various physical and intellectual tests, each race will perform the same? That's pure ignorance. All men may have been created equal, but it is no longer so.

 

If you could control for socioeconomic status and culture, then absolutely yes everyone would perform the same.

 

What you're purporting, whether intentionally or not (and I don't think it's intentional) is scientific racism.

[oochymp 2,393]

When would you say that Football has become what it is? The 50's...maybe 60's...or was it SB 1. I think this is paramount when looking at this from an objective standpoint because that is when we began to see black athletes start to seriously break through the color barrier in an impactful way. Guys like Jim Parker, Art Shell, Herb Adderly, Jim Brown, Deacon Jones, Paul Warfield, and many others started to change peoples mind about black men in professional sports. When you look at it that is also when a huge culture shift in the country started. Not saying that on caused the other because there is really no tangible proof either way, but I don't dismiss it as coincidence either.

this whole post was great, but I wanted to highlight this paragraph, because I think that's really one huge think that I know I lose track of often, and I'm sure others do as well, so the proportion of black players to white players now is about 67%, but it hasn't always been that way, the league was over 50% white until the mid-80s (only 30 years ago) and given that most coaches are former players and (as Ngata described in his post) had to spend a good chunk of time after retirement building their coaching resume before they're taken seriously as a head coaching candidate, it's not surprising to see the coaching ranks just starting to catch up

[Omerta+ 1,206]

[/size]

this whole post was great, but I wanted to highlight this paragraph, because I think that's really one huge think that I know I lose track of often, and I'm sure others do as well, so the proportion of black players to white players now is about 67%, but it hasn't always been that way, the league was over 50% white until the mid-80s (only 30 years ago) and given that most coaches are former players and (as Ngata described in his post) had to spend a good chunk of time after retirement building their coaching resume before they're taken seriously as a head coaching candidate, it's not surprising to see the coaching ranks just starting to catch up

 

Thanks man. That was a long winded response that I know the majority wont read but that is why I stuck to simple sentences to begin with. As I said I think when African American athletes broke through the color barrier in a meaningful way is when this really has to begin to start. We cant say well this started when the Acme Packers were founded because of the sentiment black people are too dumb to play football. We have to look at this when we as a society started to recognize that black athletes were every bit as talented if not more so then white athletes.

 

That is where I think you brought up the point of pipelines was critical as well. The pipelines are fine right now imo, we are just waiting for these former greats to fluff their resume. And as you and I have said in the next ten years I expect we are going to see a much larger shift in "minority" hires than anyone except a few expect. Which is why I hate this clamoring for more minority hires. Be patient and this is going to unfold as it should. And I think this rule is an absolute disgrace because we as a society have and have for quite a while realized that we are in an age where equality no longer needs mandating. This is because we as a society are living the equality in society as we speak, other than the few idiots who still think that one race is better than another.

 

Being completely honest looking at some of the black coordinators around the league there are some that imo are going to be outstanding HC's. They do not need some handout out of pity because we are saying,"Oh well these black coaches can't make it without our help." What the hell is that ? These men will make it on their own two legs not because of our pity but because they deserve that. I would be insulted by this rule if I were a black HC to be honest.

[Bucman 891]

Well I can say one thing then, those 3 coaches are retards. I can't see a NFL team hiring a white coach over a black one because of skin color, they're gonna hire the best man for the job.

[seanbrock 1,684]

Well I can say one thing then, those 3 coaches are retards. I can't see a NFL team hiring a white coach over a black one because of skin color, they're gonna hire the best man for the job.

Yeah there's too much money on the line. I think we definitely live in a racial society, but in the realm of sports it doesn't really exist. winning is the bottom line. If you can win it doesn't matter what color your skin is as a player or a coach, you'll get your shot.

[Guest Phailadelphia]

Yeah there's too much money on the line. I think we definitely live in a racial society, but in the realm of sports it doesn't really exist. winning is the bottom line. If you can win it doesn't matter what color your skin is as a player or a coach, you'll get your shot.

 

I disagree. Nepotism > winning.

Edited February 5, 2013 by Phailadelphia

[BwareDWare94 723]

I've commented on the condescension of the Rooney Rule towards blacks before, so I'll take a new angle this time. There is a universal fact, and in some ways a grave ultimatum, that a lot of people in this world seem to have trouble accepting.

 

All races are not equal.

 

Some races are smarter than others, some are faster than others, etc. Deal with it. Those of you who know me know I'm very much for racial equality, and that goes for the NFL too, but racial equality does not mean every race should be equally represented in head coaching and general manager positions. Any attempt to counter that fact is certain to fall back on itself, just as the Rooney Rule has.

 

If I might point out, I think that the very reason we are all equal is that every race is better than the others at something. If that makes sense?

[SteVo+ 3,702]

If you could control for socioeconomic status and culture

 

And that's exactly my point. Such hypothetical scenarios do not exist in the real world.

[BwareDWare94 723]

To me, there will always be racists, just like there will always be rapists, pedophiles, drunks, drug addicts, and gamblers.

 

Every vice will remain on this earth because we are flawed people. However, I don't think racism should continue to be talked about as if it's universal to all white people (and yes, only us white people get accused of it on a consistent basis).

 

Racism is a problem for a very small minority of our people, just like the rest of these vices. I'd say it's even less. I look at an apartment complex and think it's more likely I'd find any of these other vices before racism.

[Dutch 874]

And that's exactly my point. Such hypothetical scenarios do not exist in the real world.

 

Dude, that's bullshit because factually, not all races are born in similar circumstances / scenarios for you to make the broad statement that all races are not equal. Even if that were true, just because a person of one race had a better upbringing / or education than another race does NOT mean they are not equal. Shit, that doesn't even mean the person with the better education is smarter than the person with a lower education. I'm pretty sure though that all the coaches in the NFL had a pretty decent education to have a job in the NFL so socioeconomic factors doesn't matter. So you saying that all races are not equal and some races are smarter than others doesn't relate to socioeconomic factors in this situation. It's no side stepping out that comment you made brah. It was racist intentionally or not.