Guantanamo Bay

[Omerta+ 1,206]

Which brings us full circle, where do you keep them. You can not put them anywhere but a military prison where nobody is going to leave ever. With military guards and the security measures have to be much different because housing people like that presents new challenges. Which I think beings me back to the statement Gitmo has a purpose because Ideally it is perfect from a strategic standpoint for those people.

 

Also who is to say they have not and if they did how would we know ?

[Thanatos 2,847]

There is no way Obama is sitting on information that 157 people have been given trials when the world thinks only 9 of them have. It would be asinine.

 

So is suggesting it, for that matter.

 

Why do they have to be in a military prison again?

[OSUViking 505]

There are far too many to keep an eye on without taking the military budget and just laterally transferring it to the FBI or CIA in this case.

 

It's not like spreading out the military's budget would actually hurt it that badly. I don't support the Sequester's effects on the military, but in general I believe the military is overfunded and mishandled (contrary to what I stated when I first returned).

[Omerta+ 1,206]

There is no way Obama is sitting on information that 157 people have been given trials when the world thinks only 9 of them have. It would be asinine.

 

So is suggesting it, for that matter.

 

Why do they have to be in a military prison again?

 

Because of information the may/may not have. You cant put them in with civilians who can dissemniate that information. And if you do put them in there you run the risk of people being paid handsomely by oil barrons in another country, or hostage situations to get them out I mean the list goes on.

 

I do not think it is. I think it is probably a far more likely scenario to avoid awkward questions, because there is no way he comes out and says it and people just take it and leave it alone.

[Omerta+ 1,206]

It's not like spreading out the military's budget would actually hurt it that badly. I don't support the Sequester's effects on the military, but in general I believe the military is overfunded and mishandled (contrary to what I stated when I first returned).

 

I believe that to be false and thinking like that has gotten soldiers killed, you were right the first time.

[Thanatos 2,847]

There is no way anyone can look at our military budget and somehow come up with the idea that we are funded okay. We pay more to our military than the next like 10 nations combined.

[OSUViking 505]

I believe that to be false and thinking like that has gotten soldiers killed, you were right the first time.

 

It's not thinking like that at all... what? I don't even understand what you're attempting to say there. The military is only bitching about the cuts because they can't throw excess money at retarded projects anymore. Soldiers have been killed because we're fighting a war in which we don't know the enemy, not because I realize how bloated and inefficient the military budget is.

[Maverick 791]

Book smart =/= Common sense.

[seanbrock 1,684]

Haha yes put wordsin my mouth that I did not say. I did not admit to anyone being tortured there, I have not seen it therefore I cant say one way or the other. Neither have you come to think of it unless it was on a school field trip.

 

Secont if you are going to play the,"Well if we do it to them they will do it to us rhetoric," just remember who started this shit. They chop Americans heads off, video tape it, and then put it on global TV so their families can see their family members begging them for their lives. Again you wont find sympathy from me about their plight. Do you operate under the assumption we live in a perfect world ? If not, what is a suggestion on how we capture all the guilty people and none of the innocent people? I am sure that is such a novel concept that nobody had ever thought about it. The rub is that it is impossible so how do you differentiate them all ? On the one hand you got people (me) who think a better safe than sorry approach is the best bet, and then the camp (you) that says just let them all go if you dont know which of the 4 did it, doesnt matter that one is responsible for killing people as an act of terror. Those other 3 are not worth my countrymens lives imo not a one of them.

lol if you think THEY started this. The American governement has been interfering in Middle Eastern politics for like 100 years and we've been water boarding people just as long.

[blotsfan 2,112]

If go by the logic of "they started it so it's ok when we do it," we're on their level

[Maverick 791]

lol @ strawman arguments. Everybody loves throwing that phrase around thinking they're somewhat intelligent when they use it incorrectly half the time. Hence the reason I said book smart =/= common sense. Some of the smartest people I know in regards to school are the dumbest motherfuckers when it comes to common sense and street smarts.

 

Let's act all diplomatic and politically correct. Maybe if we're peaceful, they won't attack us anymore, right? ALERT: STRAWMAN ARGUMENT!!!

 

Ngata, I'm with you on all of this but I'd quit wasting your time. Hide the P&R forum from appearing on the boards - it'd save you a lot of time and aggravation. I'm about to do the same as soon as I figure out how to lol. Some of you who call yourselves "conservatives" too are laughable lol. You're a liberal, don't try to candycoat it and no I'm not referring to this specific topic.

[Maverick 791]

Alright, now that I got that emotional rant out of the way...

 

You wanna close it down? The scumbags will be distributed throughout the Federal prison system and tried throughout the Federal judiciary. This will "bring the war home" as terrorists flock to the U.S. and sleepers are instructed to free their "comrades" through acts of terrorism and kidnappings. Brilliant strategy. Since so many of its occupants are portrayed in the media as innocent people held with no evidence against them, I have to assume that many will be released back into the population.

 

I'm very skeptical of how "fixing" it would actually be properly handled.

Edited April 25, 2013 by Maverick

[blotsfan 2,112]

Treating all people with a level of dignity isn't the same as political correctness. Its showing that we are a civilized nation.

 

And the terrorists don't care about freeing the people in Guantanamo. They like using them as something to point to about how bad America is. And if you don't want to put them in with the general prison population, try them, and convict them. I wouldn't have an issue with Guantanamo being turned into a normal prison. Just not one where people are tortured and held indefinitely without a trial.

[Guest Phailadelphia]

Alright, now that I got that emotional rant out of the way...

 

You wanna close it down? The scumbags will be distributed throughout the Federal prison system and tried throughout the Federal judiciary. This will "bring the war home" as terrorists flock to the U.S. and sleepers are instructed to free their "comrades" through acts of terrorism and kidnappings. Brilliant strategy. Since so many of its occupants are portrayed in the media as innocent people held with no evidence against them, I have to assume that many will be released back into the population.

 

I'm very skeptical of how "fixing" it would actually be properly handled.

 

Who says we can't try them and, if they are found guilty, put them back into Gitmo? The issue at hand here, I think, is not Gitmo's existence but rather what goes on there. Holding people indefinitely, without trial, and with a good possibility of torture goes against everything this country supposedly stands for. Try them, get a verdict, then either send them back to Gitmo to serve their sentence or deport them back to from wherever they were arrested.

[blotsfan 2,112]

The issue at hand here, I think, is not Gitmo's existence but rather what goes on there. Holding people indefinitely, without trial, and with a good possibility of torture goes against everything this country supposedly stands for.

the fact that this isn't obvious is so sad.

[Omerta+ 1,206]

There is no way anyone can look at our military budget and somehow come up with the idea that we are funded okay. We pay more to our military than the next like 10 nations combined.

 

 

It's not thinking like that at all... what? I don't even understand what you're attempting to say there. The military is only bitching about the cuts because they can't throw excess money at retarded projects anymore. Soldiers have been killed because we're fighting a war in which we don't know the enemy, not because I realize how bloated and inefficient the military budget is.

 

Both of you cant be more wrong to be honest. Our DEFENSE budget is stupid but it has been labeled military so that way the sheeple in this country dont ask any questions and just blame the military lol. The military does not get all that money. It goes to civilian contractors who get paid more per 4 man squad than an entire company of soldiers. Guess what that gets lumped into even though it is not the military ? That is private defense firms that get lumped in with that so you see this dumb ass bloated number and people immediately without giving a second thought blames the military. Way to go. Lets not even talk about government slush funds that have to pay for operations overseas from the CIA and FBI, where do you think that shit comes from ? It was classified until recently and now all of the sudden you think we have created a new little piece called the intelligence budget. That gets lumped in with "military" The average soldier deployed makes less than 40K a year and you think it is the military. If anybody cares to do the research look at shit like that and then ask yourself where the rest goes, yeah it is the armed forces that are eating all this up.

 

Then this whole stupid ass lets cut the actual militarys budget. That is so fucking stupid it borders on insanity and I cannot believe that there are people that stupid. Yes send soldiers into a god damn war zone where they are the people who have their asses on the line and do not want to be there and start cutting funds for their equipment that keeps them alive...you guys are all fuckin heart.

 

And that statement viking lets me know how much you dont know about the military. Soldiers are dying because idiots say cut the military budget so they do. Then you have 19 year old kids going to fucking Iraq for a war they dislike more then you with motherfucking sandbags at the bottom of a HUMVEE because they dont have funding for up armor so that way Small IEDS are not a death sentence. But yeah that is so stupid, fuck the soldiers they dont need that shit. This is absolutely disgusting.

 

 

Not once do you bitch anout the CIA and FBI or companies like Black Water, Academi, Triple Canopy, Aegis, DynaCorps, Tapestry, Rockwell Collins, Haliburton, L3 , Tapestry, AECOM, GenDyn, NavMar, and the dozens more of civilian contractors that combined make more than all the military for the same job. But yet is is the soldier bitching ? Whatever dude, that is complete bullshit and what is worse is you DONT know it.

 

You want to fix the military. Tell the fuckin president to stop being a coward ass douche bag and get us the fuck out. Tell him to make it to where government bids he has to approve or go through his budget committee does not charge 50 dollars for a damn hammer. Tell him to take away private contracting gigs so that way you can cut out half the military budget their. Tell them to not let colt and knights armament rape them on munitions and weapons.

 

But hey why do that it is just easier to blame the soldiers and say fuck em' they bitch to much anyway, who gives a shit if they die over there, it is to expensive to make sure they are well taken care of in a war they hate more than most. This is despicable.

[Omerta+ 1,206]

the fact that this isn't obvious is so sad.

 

Lol thats rich since all I said from the beginning is it has a purpose. You are the one who said it had no place....it is truly sad lol.

[Omerta+ 1,206]

Who says we can't try them and, if they are found guilty, put them back into Gitmo? The issue at hand here, I think, is not Gitmo's existence but rather what goes on there. Holding people indefinitely, without trial, and with a good possibility of torture goes against everything this country supposedly stands for. Try them, get a verdict, then either send them back to Gitmo to serve their sentence or deport them back to from wherever they were arrested.

 

I suggested that already, and from the get go said it served a purpose not I condone torture.

[Guest Phailadelphia]

I suggested that already, and from the get go said it served a purpose not I condone torture.

 

That wasn't a shot at you. I was just responding to Mav. I haven't read much of this thread.

[OSUViking 505]

 

 

Ngata, I'm with you on all of this but I'd quit wasting your time. Hide the P&R forum from appearing on the boards - it'd save you a lot of time and aggravation. I'm about to do the same as soon as I figure out how to lol. Some of you who call yourselves "conservatives" too are laughable lol. You're a liberal, don't try to candycoat it and no I'm not referring to this specific topic.

 

Don't throw around the term liberal as if it's a derogatory term, because you're showing yourself to be just as bad "intellectually" and "common sense" wise as the liberals you bash on. You don't get to brandish us as liberals just because we don't support the torture of enemy combatants and the existence of a truly heinous place. You don't get to say "book smart =/= common sense" when you clearly aren't using any, hence you wouldn't be using liberal as if it's supposed to be offensive. You can throw around that all you want, and you can continue to act like you're better than us when it comes to political matters, but I will tell you one thing: I'm damn proud to be a social liberal.

 

 

By the way, there's a difference between a liberal and a libertarian, which is what most of the people you just labeled "liberals" are. I generally respect you Mav, but this post was entirely classless.

[OSUViking 505]

Alright, now that I got that emotional rant out of the way...

 

You wanna close it down? The scumbags will be distributed throughout the Federal prison system and tried throughout the Federal judiciary. This will "bring the war home" as terrorists flock to the U.S. and sleepers are instructed to free their "comrades" through acts of terrorism and kidnappings. Brilliant strategy. Since so many of its occupants are portrayed in the media as innocent people held with no evidence against them, I have to assume that many will be released back into the population.

 

I'm very skeptical of how "fixing" it would actually be properly handled.

 

I'll say this again... you bring up the lack of common sense here and yet you post this? This post is nothing but fear mongering. There is literally no thought put into this stance other than, "Hey guys this is a possible scenario we should all react without thinking anything through!"

[OSUViking 505]

Both of you cant be more wrong to be honest. Our DEFENSE budget is stupid but it has been labeled military so that way the sheeple in this country dont ask any questions and just blame the military lol. The military does not get all that money. It goes to civilian contractors who get paid more per 4 man squad than an entire company of soldiers. Guess what that gets lumped into even though it is not the military ? That is private defense firms that get lumped in with that so you see this dumb ass bloated number and people immediately without giving a second thought blames the military. Way to go. Lets not even talk about government slush funds that have to pay for operations overseas from the CIA and FBI, where do you think that shit comes from ? It was classified until recently and now all of the sudden you think we have created a new little piece called the intelligence budget. That gets lumped in with "military" The average soldier deployed makes less than 40K a year and you think it is the military. If anybody cares to do the research look at shit like that and then ask yourself where the rest goes, yeah it is the armed forces that are eating all this up.

 

I'll acknowledge that a stupid amount of money goes to contractors (both civilian and private), but the military is still overfunded. Part of the reason it's overfunded and inefficient? Well... we can look to the things you brought up. Contractors get assloads of money with no repercussions if their projects suck (and they can often take shortcuts to save money... see: F-22, F-35, USS San Antonio). Civilian contractors and their departments get money and aren't allowed to have excess. I read in a newspaper than an anonymous base contractor (civilian) had to go spend over $1,000 on plasma TVs just so that the excess money they had wasn't wasted. It's pathetic, but it is a part of our defense budget and civilian contractors/private contractors are a part of our defense. If you're not willing to cut the budget, you better be willing to reform how we spend it so that we don't have assloads of wasted money in those tiny departments and defense programs.

 

Then this whole stupid ass lets cut the actual militarys budget. That is so fucking stupid it borders on insanity and I cannot believe that there are people that stupid. Yes send soldiers into a god damn war zone where they are the people who have their asses on the line and do not want to be there and start cutting funds for their equipment that keeps them alive...you guys are all fuckin heart.

 

I'm not advocating this at all... there is a massive difference between what the US tried to do in the Mexican-American War and curbing our defense spending because it's ridiculous. There are ways to go about trimming our defense expenditures without hurting the troops on the frontlines, and I tried to highlight this in my paragraph above.

 

And that statement viking lets me know how much you dont know about the military. Soldiers are dying because idiots say cut the military budget so they do. Then you have 19 year old kids going to fucking Iraq for a war they dislike more then you with motherfucking sandbags at the bottom of a HUMVEE because they dont have funding for up armor so that way Small IEDS are not a death sentence. But yeah that is so stupid, fuck the soldiers they dont need that shit. This is absolutely disgusting.

 

Obviously, the statement showed you nothing simply because you took it out of context. I don't support punishing or harming the soldiers we send to the frontlines just because our politicians and lobbyists bloat the military budget and then suck it dry in the most inefficient manner. I said this above: there are ways to trim spending without harming our troops. Also, IEDs are a death sentence for anything not in an MRAP or a tank (I think they can still take out tanks). Even when the MRAPs get hit, they are usually leveled to the point where they need serious repair. The only benefit an MRAP serves is protecting the crew inside - something you will likely never get with a HUMVEE.

 

 

Not once do you bitch anout the CIA and FBI or companies like Black Water, Academi, Triple Canopy, Aegis, DynaCorps, Tapestry, Rockwell Collins, Haliburton, L3 , Tapestry, AECOM, GenDyn, NavMar, and the dozens more of civilian contractors that combined make more than all the military for the same job. But yet is is the soldier bitching ? Whatever dude, that is complete bullshit and what is worse is you DONT know it.

 

I don't complain about them because I wasn't talking about them? I've also complained about the need for reform and regulation in the private aspect of our defense industry numerous times.

 

You want to fix the military. Tell the fuckin president to stop being a coward ass douche bag and get us the fuck out. Tell him to make it to where government bids he has to approve or go through his budget committee does not charge 50 dollars for a damn hammer. Tell him to take away private contracting gigs so that way you can cut out half the military budget their. Tell them to not let colt and knights armament rape them on munitions and weapons.

 

If I could do this, I would. I agree with what you're saying here; it's ridiculous that subcontracting has made it to the point where using a hammer costs more than it does to go buy a video game. It's ridiculous that they can have numerous programs like the F-35 go over budget with no consequences and then fuck up on it as much as they have. It's ridiculous that we let them cut corners on a fighter that was designed to give us uncontested air dominance for generations. It's ridiculous that we're still in this war. Can I do anything about it? No... I can only try to sway people to my line of thinking so that they can see a clearer picture about it too. Will I succeed? Unlikely. I would make all of these changes if I could, but I'm completely incapable of doing anything about it unless I spawn a few billion dollars and buy my way into Washington.

 

But hey why do that it is just easier to blame the soldiers and say fuck em' they bitch to much anyway, who gives a shit if they die over there, it is to expensive to make sure they are well taken care of in a war they hate more than most. This is despicable.

 

Again... I wasn't blaming the soldiers. I mentioned how the military has committed heinous crimes, but I don't recall directly saying we should punish the soldiers (or even implying that).

[Thanatos 2,847]

Viking pretty much covered what I was going to say in response to Ngata's post. We are putting $700 billion dollars a year into the military. If part of that number goes to the contractors you're talking about Ngata, then they'd be first on the chopping block. I would never advocate sending soldiers unprepared into the battlefield, if I thought that was the case I wouldn't fight that war.

 

And just ignore Mav. He is almost entirely using strawman arguments and/or fear-mongering, rather than actually trying to have a discussion.

[Maverick 791]

I'll say this again... you bring up the lack of common sense here and yet you post this? This post is nothing but fear mongering. There is literally no thought put into this stance other than, "Hey guys this is a possible scenario we should all react without thinking anything through!"

Just because you don't agree with it doesn't mean it's not common sense. That's very closeminded.

 

This whole post is the epitome of a straw man argument. [/thanatostheliberal]

[OSUViking 505]

Just because you don't agree with it doesn't mean it's not common sense. That's very closeminded.

 

Lol, I get the feeling you're just trolling now but in case you aren't, I'll continue anyway. It doesn't make sense because that comment had no factual backing to it and was comprised of nothing more than a bad attempt at scaremongering. You don't get to preach about how "liberals" don't use common sense, and then turn around and put up a shit argument.

 

[/mavericktheconservative]