seanbrock 1,684 Posted June 29, 2014 Everyone always it's Jordan without question. Odds are if they don't answer with Jordan they say Bill Russell. My question is, why are Wilt and Kareem not in the convo. I know the league Wilt played in was vastly different than todays, but the guy had 100 points in one game. He had 55 rebounds in one game (against Bill Russell and the Celtics). The guy averaged 50 points per game in a season once. Michael has rings over Wilt, but why is Wilt always left out. A lot of people said he couldn't beat Bill Russell but he flat out embarrassed him most games in the playoffs. His teams were just never as good. I think Kareem should be in the discussion too. I think people put Jordan on a pedestal too much. Not trying to diminish his greatness but why do we so easily dismiss the greatness of others before him? What are your guys thoughts? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bucman 891 Posted June 29, 2014 Wilt Chamberlain towered above everyone he played against. Very unlikely he comes close to the #s he put up in todays NBA. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
seanbrock 1,684 Posted June 29, 2014 Wilt Chamberlain towered above everyone he played against. Very unlikely he comes close to the #s he put up in todays NBA. He was also routinely faced 3-4 defenders who would punch him, hang all over him and all kinds of other stuff. Mostly what I'm getting at is why is MJ just automatically the greatest in most everyone's eyes. To me I feel like at the very least it shouldn't automatic and it's kind of disrespectful to some of the other greats. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AL_Royalty 489 Posted June 29, 2014 Terrible Troll Threads are terrible. They help Al Queda win. Jordan is commonly referred to as the GOAT because he was, in fact, the GOAT. The things he did in a league that was easily the best and most competitive it's ever been was nothing short of miraculous. There were contenders everywhere, but no matter who was gunning for the Bulls or how they went about closing the gap, they just couldn't topple the guy. I grew up watching the guy from the time I started watching the game. There's never been anyone like him. As to your Bill and Wilt stuff.... No. Any idea how many teams there were in the league back then? How about the average height or the fact that the league was still damn near segregated. There were a lot of factors in the dominance of the biggest, strongest guys on the block. There were most likely some very talented guys back then who just never got a chance to play in the league because of biases as well as the limited size of it. Same with Shaq. He was a big-ass bully. I'm not saying that the accomplishments of this guy wasn't amazing. I'm just saying that there was a pretty large advantage every time he stepped onto the floor. I know you didn't mention Shaq, but he falls in line with the Wilt thing. As for Kareem, I think there's more of a case for him than the other two. Kareem was straight talent, but the fact that he played with the showtime Lakers kind of took a little of the shine off the stone. That was one of the greatest teams in the history of the league, and even with that being the case, Jordan still had more success than ol' Kareem. Jordan beat champions on his way to his championships. He beat HOFers. He beat the GOATS before he was the GOAT. He made HIS logo greater than THE logo, and he did it by experiencing TEAM success. There's also the little thing about exposure. Back in the days of Wilt, Bill, and Oscar, there really wasn't much television coverage of the league. They still shot free throws granny style, and there were no cameras to catch them doing it. All we have of Wilt's 100 point game is that photo of him holding the hand drawn sign. Nowaday in the age of Youtube and instagram, if it's not on film it's not relevant. That definitely is a factor for some of the newer fans not really knowing about the older greats, but all the other stuff is the justification for fans over the age of 25. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ATL_Predator+ 1,196 Posted June 30, 2014 So when I say Geno Atkins is the best defensive player in the NFL I get called an NFL hipster... But you make a thread saying Jordan isn't the GOAT and this is ok? 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blotsfan 2,112 Posted June 30, 2014 Terrible Troll Threads are terrible. They help Al Queda win. Jordan is commonly referred to as the GOAT because he was, in fact, the GOAT. The things he did in a league that was easily the best and most competitive it's ever been was nothing short of miraculous. There were contenders everywhere, but no matter who was gunning for the Bulls or how they went about closing the gap, they just couldn't topple the guy. I grew up watching the guy from the time I started watching the game. There's never been anyone like him. As to your Bill and Wilt stuff.... No. Any idea how many teams there were in the league back then? How about the average height or the fact that the league was still damn near segregated. There were a lot of factors in the dominance of the biggest, strongest guys on the block. There were most likely some very talented guys back then who just never got a chance to play in the league because of biases as well as the limited size of it. Same with Shaq. He was a big-ass bully. I'm not saying that the accomplishments of this guy wasn't amazing. I'm just saying that there was a pretty large advantage every time he stepped onto the floor. I know you didn't mention Shaq, but he falls in line with the Wilt thing. As for Kareem, I think there's more of a case for him than the other two. Kareem was straight talent, but the fact that he played with the showtime Lakers kind of took a little of the shine off the stone. That was one of the greatest teams in the history of the league, and even with that being the case, Jordan still had more success than ol' Kareem. Jordan beat champions on his way to his championships. He beat HOFers. He beat the GOATS before he was the GOAT. He made HIS logo greater than THE logo, and he did it by experiencing TEAM success. There's also the little thing about exposure. Back in the days of Wilt, Bill, and Oscar, there really wasn't much television coverage of the league. They still shot free throws granny style, and there were no cameras to catch them doing it. All we have of Wilt's 100 point game is that photo of him holding the hand drawn sign. Nowaday in the age of Youtube and instagram, if it's not on film it's not relevant. That definitely is a factor for some of the newer fans not really knowing about the older greats, but all the other stuff is the justification for fans over the age of 25. The mid-90s are often considered the weakest the NBA as a whole has been since the early days. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AL_Royalty 489 Posted June 30, 2014 The mid-90s are often considered the weakest the NBA as a whole has been since the early days. By who? And he won his first three in the early '90s. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
seanbrock 1,684 Posted June 30, 2014 So when I say Geno Atkins is the best defensive player in the NFL I get called an NFL hipster... But you make a thread saying Jordan isn't the GOAT and this is ok? Never said that MJ wasn't the greatest. All I'm saying is he's put on such a pedestal by everybody that people act like nobody else even has a case to be the GOAT. @ charles_in_charge. Wilt wouldn't score 50ppg in the modern NBA, but don't act as though Wilt just dominated because he was taller than everyone. Wilt Chamberlain was an accomplished track star. He could run, shot put and jump like probably nobody the game has seen TO THIS DAY. The man could touch the top of the back board and that was when guys essentially wore Chuck Taylor like shoes instead of the shoes of today. You also hear numerous stories from players around the league talking about how strong he was. Listen to Arnold talk about how strong Wilt was. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AL_Royalty 489 Posted June 30, 2014 Never said that MJ wasn't the greatest. All I'm saying is he's put on such a pedestal by everybody that people act like nobody else even has a case to be the GOAT. @ charles_in_charge. Wilt wouldn't score 50ppg in the modern NBA, but don't act as though Wilt just dominated because he was taller than everyone. Wilt Chamberlain was an accomplished track star. He could run, shot put and jump like probably nobody the game has seen TO THIS DAY. The man could touch the top of the back board and that was when guys essentially wore Chuck Taylor like shoes instead of the shoes of today. You also hear numerous stories from players around the league talking about how strong he was. Listen to Arnold talk about how strong Wilt was. I never said he was JUST taller. I also said stronger, and you seem to concur. You also say he was faster than everyone as well. Sounds like you're making my point for me. He was the baddest dude on the block. He was the most dominant player of his generation without question. He played in the same era as the only guy to ever average a triple double for a season, so he might not have even been the most TALENTED player of his generation. Shaq was the most dominant player of his generation, but you'd probably have a hard time putting together a group who actually think he was a better player than Kobe, and definitely not Jordan. If you're not saying that Jordan isn't the greatest, then what case are you trying to make exactly? It's kinda like saying, "I'm not saying that the calculator isn't better than the abacus. I'm just wondering why everyone automatically says it is." Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BwareDWare94 723 Posted June 30, 2014 LeBron's in this conversation. 2 5 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
seanbrock 1,684 Posted June 30, 2014 Greatest of All Time and most Skilled of all time in my book are not the same thing. Doesn't matter how you put the points up on the board. Just matters that you do and the fact is that while Shaq might not have been as skilled as Kobe he was clearly the driving force behind those first 3 championships. The guy was so unstoppable you had to foul him or just chalk up 2 points. Wilt had skill and post moves though man. It's not like he was just some giant out there. There was a game he pulled down 55 rebounds against Bill Russell (one of the best rebounders ever) and the Celtics (one of the best teams ever assembled). I just don't think this is open and shut tbh Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blotsfan 2,112 Posted June 30, 2014 By who? And he won his first three in the early '90s. Go to #4 I'm not saying the Jordan Bulls weren't great, or that he wasn't an all-timer but his competition was definitely lacking back then. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thanatos 2,847 Posted June 30, 2014 (edited) Everyone downplaying Wilt for the "era" he was in is guilty of modern day prejudice. Happens a ton in sports. There is a conversation, Jordan is not the open and shut GOAT end of story, and Wilt is most definitely in said conversation. He wasnt just tall, he was very accurate, had a fadeaway shot that looked like Dirk's, and was incredibly, tremendously strong. They showed a shot he made where he literally picked up a player who was hanging onto his arm merely by raising his arms to make the shot, (obviously with tremendous effort, point is, he didnt put his hands around him to lift him or anything). He was also incredibly fit and once played literally an entire season every minute of every game save for eight minutes in one game when he was ejected due to technical fouls. 9-time Minutes Leader7-time Scoring Champion11-time Rebound Leader1-time Total Assist Leader9-time Efficiency Leader 9-time FG% Leader To discount what Wilt Chamberlain did because of the era he played in is plain and simple ignorant. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOBX9ikNzEk Edited June 30, 2014 by Thanatos19 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AL_Royalty 489 Posted June 30, 2014 I'm curious to know how exactly you've managed to familiarize yourself with the intricacies of Wilt's game, given the fact that there is virtually next to no film on the guy? Are you just taking second and third hand info from those that were old enough to have actually watched him play, because memories tend to change over time: especially once you hit senior citizen age. This is not me trying to be an uber-douche smart-ass. I'm just sayin'. Using video game-like stats from 60 years ago, the GOAT does not make. Those Bill Russel Celtics teams that he was grabbing all those boards against had exactly one guy taller than 6'9", and only two taller than 6'7". Also, there were 9 teams in the league back then, as I alluded to earlier. As impressive as the shear volume of Wilt's stats might be, It's not nearly as impressive enough for me to form a second opinion about MJ. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
seanbrock 1,684 Posted June 30, 2014 I'm curious to know how exactly you've managed to familiarize yourself with the intricacies of Wilt's game, given the fact that there is virtually next to no film on the guy? Are you just taking second and third hand info from those that were old enough to have actually watched him play, because memories tend to change over time: especially once you hit senior citizen age. This is not me trying to be an uber-douche smart-ass. I'm just sayin'. Using video game-like stats from 60 years ago, the GOAT does not make. Those Bill Russel Celtics teams that he was grabbing all those boards against had exactly one guy taller than 6'9", and only two taller than 6'7". Also, there were 9 teams in the league back then, as I alluded to earlier. As impressive as the shear volume of Wilt's stats might be, It's not nearly as impressive enough for me to form a second opinion about MJ. 55 rebounds wouldn't be easy for an NBA player to get against a college basketball team dude and there's enough game tape on him show that he had skill to his game too. 55 rebounds...how many shots are even taken game to game lol. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thanatos 2,847 Posted June 30, 2014 (edited) I'm curious to know how exactly you've managed to familiarize yourself with the intricacies of Wilt's game, given the fact that there is virtually next to no film on the guy? Are you just taking second and third hand info from those that were old enough to have actually watched him play, because memories tend to change over time: especially once you hit senior citizen age. This is not me trying to be an uber-douche smart-ass. I'm just sayin'. Using video game-like stats from 60 years ago, the GOAT does not make. Those Bill Russel Celtics teams that he was grabbing all those boards against had exactly one guy taller than 6'9", and only two taller than 6'7". Also, there were 9 teams in the league back then, as I alluded to earlier. As impressive as the shear volume of Wilt's stats might be, It's not nearly as impressive enough for me to form a second opinion about MJ. So your argument is basically "due to the era he was in, we cant ever know or even hypothesize about how he would have done in the league as it is today, therefore he cannot be the GOAT." That's some messed up logic there, bro. I'm going based off of videos and information that I have watched, interviews with people like Bill Russell and Kareem Abdul-Jabaar. Jordan's greatest season for FG% was .539. Wilt's AVERAGE was .540. Wilt Chamberlain is the only center in the history of the NBA to lead the league in assists. He never, not once, fouled out in his entire career. There are numerous other things I can pull out. I don't think the question can ever be definitively answered. The video I posted has every point of Wilt's in his entire career that is on film, which is only 2% of his total shots. I am reacting against you acting like the conversation is open and shut, and Jordan is the GOAT of all time period. Edited June 30, 2014 by Thanatos19 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dutch 874 Posted June 30, 2014 LeBron's in this conversation. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thanatos 2,847 Posted June 30, 2014 Yeah. LeBron is not in this conversation. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thanatos 2,847 Posted June 30, 2014 (edited) Relevant Video But yeah, Chamberlain never played against anyone his own size. Note that this was late in Wilt's career: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2U4JSrpO78 Edited June 30, 2014 by Thanatos19 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241 Posted June 30, 2014 There are only four real candidates for GOAT imo. And they are MJ, Wilt, Russell, KAJ. I've already expressed here, on facebook, when talking to all my ghetto friends, that Russell is imo the GOAT. And its not just cause i'm hipstr... This is an interesting thread though, KAJ and Wilt always do get kept out of the talk. Wilt's numbers are so lopsided that it does make some question them, I'm not really in the category, but it does say a lot imo that Russell and his teams always seemed to have the upper hand. KAJ has longevity, but his best years were in the 70s, which were kinda watered down imo. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
seanbrock 1,684 Posted June 30, 2014 Relevant Video But yeah, Chamberlain never played against anyone his own size. Note that this was late in Wilt's career: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2U4JSrpO78 Also note that Wilt was the only one who could block the sky hook. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ATL_Predator+ 1,196 Posted June 30, 2014 There are only four real candidates for GOAT imo. And they are MJ, Wilt, Russell, KAJ. I've already expressed here, on facebook, when talking to all my ghetto friends, that Russell is imo the GOAT. And its not just cause i'm hipstr... This is an interesting thread though, KAJ and Wilt always do get kept out of the talk. Wilt's numbers are so lopsided that it does make some question them, I'm not really in the category, but it does say a lot imo that Russell and his teams always seemed to have the upper hand. KAJ has longevity, but his best years were in the 70s, which were kinda watered down imo. /Thread Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
seanbrock 1,684 Posted June 30, 2014 People are going to laugh at BWare's comment about LeBron, but I'll say this. I don't think he's there yet, but his career isn't over. He continues to get better and if he can develop a consistent jump shot he would be absolutely unguardable and he's already an elite defensive player. LeBron with a little bit better jump shot would stack up against anyone in NBA history imo Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Milla4Prez63 678 Posted June 30, 2014 I'm having a hard time including LeBron in GOAT talks after he just got SPANKED in the Finals. He could join the conversation by the time his career his over, but LeBron is more hype than anything to me. Not to say he isn't great, he is. But the whole 2-3 in the Finals looks kind of ugly right now and I'm tired of hearing about how he never has enough help. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites