Confederate Flag Ruling

[Cherry 1,302]

Yeah the nazis enslaved and committed genocide on Jews for 10 years or so. The US did it to black people for hundreds.

Oh sorry I didn't know we committed genocide. Mind showing me the stats on the six million blacks we killed?

[RazorStar 4,025]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_slave_trade

 

Thank you Wikipedia. Stop digging the hole Cherry.

[Thanatos 2,847]

I'm Jewish, if I have stuff with Swastikas all over it, does that change the meaning of the symbol?*

 

 

 

*the answer is no

Funny you should say that...

 

"The swastika is a very old symbol with use widespread throughout the world. Sometimes referred to as a “Gammadion” “Hakenkreuz” or a “Flyfot,” it traditionally had been a sign of good fortune and well being The word “swastika” is derived from the Sanskrit “su” meaning “well” and “asti” meaning “being.”"

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-29644591

 

Point being, symbols can change meanings. The swastika used to mean good luck, now we associate it with Hitler. Just because people think the Confederate flag is only about racism, doesn't make it true.

 

Note that I don't have a dog in this fight. I don't fly any flags. Just think yall are overreacting here.

Edited June 28, 2015 by Thanatos19

[DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241]

The rebel flag, is inherently a racist symbol though. People can try all they want until they are blue in the face to argue about it being a symbol of "pride", or "heritage" or whatever else, but they are either lying, or truly misunderstand the origin of the flag, the group, and what it really means.

 

The fact of the matter is that every single leader of the confederate nation made it public, and well known in multiple speeches the primary reason they left was because they wanted certain rights, and without a doubt the only true right they were talking about was the one to own slaves, and white supremacy. It was a staple of the new government all the way down to their law. The president, (and vice president) himself of the confederates claimed that the "great truths" of their government was that whites were superior to blacks, and therefor blacks should be slaves for the superior race.

 

People can try all they want, but the flag's origin and the reason why it came to be entirely stands for one thing. It, and the union was birthed for one thing, it was again re-used by hate groups for the same thing, and Mr. Roof didn't misinterpret it as some politicians want to claim, he interpreted it the same way it's creators interpreted it.

 

People can fly the flag, wear it, paint their face, body with it, I don't care. But it's not something that anyone should want on, or near a government building. I can't even imagine what it's like for most blacks who lived around there (SC) to see that thing so often. I saw it waving in front of a house for the first time ever (in Oregon of all places) and everyone I told about the situation back home told me to never go near the area. Not because of this irrational fear that everyone who has it is a racist, but because whoever waves that thing whether they know it or not are waving around an inherently racist symbol, and the automatic assumption is then that they themselves are racists. Fair or not, that's just the way it is.

[Favre4Ever+ 4,476]

Again, the Confederate Flag and any symbol only has the meaning and power we choose to give it. It's a symbol, by itself.. It means nothing. It means different things to different people. Just because you wave a confederate flag doesn't necessarily mean you appreciate the finer intricacies of slave ownership.

What do you feel when you look at the American flag? I bet it's probably different than what I feel? Or even what about the Packers logo -- or any other sign, symbol, flag, or logo in this country or across the world?

I have no right to sit here and tell anyone else here how to feel or react to the confederate flag. If you look at it and decide to give it that kind of raw and immense power, so be it. Am I going to sit out on my front porch and wave the confederate flag? No... But that's because it doesn't really have any meaning to me. I refuse to give that symbol any power.

What I will do is understand and fight for everyone's right to feel their own way about those symbols... Even if those feelings are (in my opinion) stupid or ignorant or out of touch with reality. Unless you are infringing on the rights of others, I am not going to stop you from your right to be stupid / ignorant / out of touch with reality.

As soon as we lose our ability to think and feel and come to our own conclusions on things -- we've lost everything.

[Favre4Ever+ 4,476]

The fact of the matter is that every single leader of the confederate nation made it public, and well known in multiple speeches the primary reason they left was because they wanted certain rights, and without a doubt the only true right they were talking about was the one to own slaves, and white supremacy. It was a staple of the new government all the way down to their law. The president, (and vice president) himself of the confederates claimed that the "great truths" of their government was that whites were superior to blacks, and therefor blacks should be slaves for the superior race.

 

Uhhh, man, see... I don't know. I mean, I live in Iowa. Pretty small "city", even. And just by reading other comments I can tell what the answer is going to be already (from other people).

 

What did you guys learn about the Civil War? Was it literally just one big chapter on slavery and how bad it was?

 

But going through school, we never learned that the Civil only happened because of slavery. Obviously it was a huge factor, and there's lots of reasons tied into slavery but not directly that contributed as well. There was talk of abolishing slavery in the south even... Granted, the people in power entrenched slavery into their governing documents, so those talks didn't go very far -- but they did happen. The South, their way of life.. their principles, values, manner of governing (things like taxes and tariffs) were all so fundamentally different.

 

The south rebelled. After they did so... Why did Lincoln fight so hard to keep the South part of the country? Why deny their separation just as we had from Great Britain before?

 

Again, maybe people learned different things than I did.. But it wasn't because Lincoln felt a moral duty to beat the South and free all the slaves. He kept slave states in the union and upheld slavery until his epic failure of an attempt in the Emancipation Proclamation -- which just so happened to only include the states that left the Union (so that he didn't anger the border states). Slavery was fine and dandy, even in the Union throughout the war. Those slaves in the Union states who didn't leave were only freed by the 13th amendment.

 

If Lincoln let's those states leave with the rest of the slave states... The Union more than likely loses the war and who the hell knows what happens from there on out.

 

The Civil War was fought to preserve the Union. To keep this country together for a variety of reasons..... Not to free slaves.

Edited June 28, 2015 by Favre4Ever

[Guest Phailadelphia]

Again, the Confederate Flag and any symbol only has the meaning and power we choose to give it. It's a symbol, by itself.. It means nothing. It means different things to different people. Just because you wave a confederate flag doesn't necessarily mean you appreciate the finer intricacies of slave ownership.

 

What do you feel when you look at the American flag? I bet it's probably different than what I feel? Or even what about the Packers logo -- or any other sign, symbol, flag, or logo in this country or across the world?

 

I have no right to sit here and tell anyone else here how to feel or react to the confederate flag. If you look at it and decide to give it that kind of raw and immense power, so be it. Am I going to sit out on my front porch and wave the confederate flag? No... But that's because it doesn't really have any meaning to me. I refuse to give that symbol any power.

 

What I will do is understand and fight for everyone's right to feel their own way about those symbols... Even if those feelings are (in my opinion) stupid or ignorant or out of touch with reality. Unless you are infringing on the rights of others, I am not going to stop you from your right to be stupid / ignorant / out of touch with reality.

 

As soon as we lose our ability to think and feel and come to our own conclusions on things -- we've lost everything.

Nothing the U.S. or any individual can do will ever change the meaning of the flag. Like the swastika, the symbolic meaning was determined by events already done long ago. Anyone who flies the confederate flag is promoting white supremacy period. Their ignorance of the symbolism behind the flag does not excuse them from its legacy. You don't get to just make up your own meaning behind something so atrocious. There's zero ambiguity associated with the flag and there's nothing any of us can do to change that. Your argument is hot garbage.

[Guest Phailadelphia]

 

Uhhh, man, see... I don't know. I mean, I live in Iowa. Pretty small "city", even. And just by reading other comments I can tell what the answer is going to be already (from other people).

 

What did you guys learn about the Civil War? Was it literally just one big chapter on slavery and how bad it was?

 

But going through school, we never learned that the Civil only happened because of slavery. Obviously it was a huge factor, and there's lots of reasons tied into slavery but not directly that contributed as well. There was talk of abolishing slavery in the south even... Granted, the people in power entrenched slavery into their governing documents, so those talks didn't go very far -- but they did happen. The South, their way of life.. their principles, values, manner of governing (things like taxes and tariffs) were all so fundamentally different.

 

The south rebelled. After they did so... Why did Lincoln fight so hard to keep the South part of the country? Why deny their separation just as we had from Great Britain before?

 

Again, maybe people learned different things than I did.. But it wasn't because Lincoln felt a moral duty to beat the South and free all the slaves. He kept slave states in the union and upheld slavery until his epic failure of an attempt in the Emancipation Proclamation -- which just so happened to only include the states that left the Union (so that he didn't anger the border states). Slavery was fine and dandy, even in the Union throughout the war. Those slaves in the Union states who didn't leave were only freed by the 13th amendment.

 

If Lincoln let's those states leave with the rest of the slave states... The Union more than likely loses the war and who the hell knows what happens from there on out.

 

The Civil War was fought to preserve the Union. To keep this country together for a variety of reasons..... Not to free slaves.

You should consider reading McPherson's "Battle Cry of Freedom" ASAP.

[Thanatos 2,847]

Nothing the U.S. or any individual can do will ever change the meaning of the flag. Like the swastika, the symbolic meaning was determined by events already done long ago. Anyone who flies the confederate flag is promoting white supremacy period. Their ignorance of the symbolism behind the flag does not excuse them from its legacy. You don't get to just make up your own meaning behind something so atrocious. There's zero ambiguity associated with the flag and there's nothing any of us can do to change that. Your argument is hot garbage.

Except the swastika's original meaning was for good luck. Clearly there are things that people can do to change the meaning of a flag. Hitler appropriated the symbol because he thought the people who originally used it were the ancestors of the German race- Aryans.

 

Flags and symbols don't have to just mean one thing. I certainly wouldn't have a swastika on anything at the moment, given what we feel when we look at it. But a hundred years down the road? Two hundred? Who knows.

 

The simplistic idea that most of you seem to have that the Civil War was only really about slavery is rather absurd. As with many things in our history, this was not a black/white issue, it wasn't good vs evil.

 

As far as the argument goes that we shouldn't fly it because people who did so at one point in history were trying to secede and therefore it is anti-America, wouldn't basically the same argument apply to the British flag?

[Favre4Ever+ 4,476]

You should consider reading McPherson's "Battle Cry of Freedom" ASAP.

You should consider reading Woods' "The Politically Incorrect Guide to American History" ASAP.

[Guest Phailadelphia]

You should consider reading Woods' "The Politically Incorrect Guide to American History" ASAP.

No one with a modicum of intelligence should ever seriously consider reading a single one of the "politically correct guide" books.

[Guest Phailadelphia]

Except the swastika's original meaning was for good luck. Clearly there are things that people can do to change the meaning of a flag. Hitler appropriated the symbol because he thought the people who originally used it were the ancestors of the German race- Aryans.

 

Flags and symbols don't have to just mean one thing. I certainly wouldn't have a swastika on anything at the moment, given what we feel when we look at it. But a hundred years down the road? Two hundred? Who knows.

 

The simplistic idea that most of you seem to have that the Civil War was only really about slavery is rather absurd. As with many things in our history, this was not a black/white issue, it wasn't good vs evil.

 

As far as the argument goes that we shouldn't fly it because people who did so at one point in history were trying to secede and therefore it is anti-America, wouldn't basically the same argument apply to the British flag?

Nazis made the swastika exponentially more infamous, and prior to them it was relatively ambiguous. It was like a peace sign. The Nazis changed that and it can't be undone.

 

I'm not talking about the Civil War. I'm talking about the inextricable, undeniable link between the confederate flag and white supremacy.

 

Edit: Ta-Nehisi Coates wrote a great piece on the link between slavery and the civil war though. Good read - http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/06/what-this-cruel-war-was-over/396482/

Edited June 28, 2015 by Phailadelphia

[Favre4Ever+ 4,476]

No one with a modicum of intelligence should ever seriously consider reading a single one of the "politically correct guide" books.

Can't be much different than the revisionist history that you suggested I read.

[Guest Phailadelphia]

Can't be much different than the revisionist history that you suggested I read.

It's widely considered one of if not the best histories of the civil war ever written, but you do you.

[Thanatos 2,847]

Can't be much different than the revisionist history that you suggested I read.

Err. Battle Cry of Freedom is a fantastic book. I've read it myself. While I don't agree 100% with everything in it, it's still an extremely well written brief history of the Civil War. (And by brief I am only referring to the fact that its very hard to cover everything in one book, even if its 900 pages.)

 

Here: http://www.amazon.com/Battle-Cry-Freedom-The-Civil/dp/0195038630

Edited June 28, 2015 by Thanatos19

[BJORN 679]

It's stupid.

 

It's offensive.

 

It's Unamerican in every form. In fact, it's a form of anarchy which is against the U.S. government.

 

It should've been banned when the fucking Civil War is over, and it has always enraged me every day driving in bumfuck central PA seeing bikers and losers with lifted trucks that embrace a 'redneck' lifestyle.

 

Burn them all.

Lmao I see it all the time in Maryland. And I realize Maryland is kind of on the north/south border and is very diverse but...where I live no one should be flying it. There is nothing Southern about where I live. And the only side I can see for flying it is that it represents Southern pride & unity.

Edited June 28, 2015 by BJORN

[Thanatos 2,847]

Nazis made the swastika exponentially more infamous, and prior to them it was relatively ambiguous. It was like a peace sign. The Nazis changed that and it can't be undone.

 

I'm not talking about the Civil War. I'm talking about the inextricable, undeniable link between the confederate flag and white supremacy.

 

Edit: Ta-Nehisi Coates wrote a great piece on the link between slavery and the civil war though. Good read - http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/06/what-this-cruel-war-was-over/396482/

So symbols can be changed for the worse, but never for the better?

[Guest Phailadelphia]

So symbols can be changed for the worse, but never for the better?

I'm not creating some rule or principle here. I'm only saying the swastika and confederate flag represent atrocities so severe that they can not (and should not) be allowed to represent new or alternative meaning.

[Thanatos 2,847]

No matter how long after we wait?

 

I'm not really debating here, I'm just curious on your opinion. So what someone once used them for has tainted them so terribly that its impossible to "redeem" their use for anything else?

[DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241]

Again, the Confederate Flag and any symbol only has the meaning and power we choose to give it. It's a symbol, by itself.. It means nothing. It means different things to different people. Just because you wave a confederate flag doesn't necessarily mean you appreciate the finer intricacies of slave ownership.

 

What do you feel when you look at the American flag? I bet it's probably different than what I feel? Or even what about the Packers logo -- or any other sign, symbol, flag, or logo in this country or across the world?

 

I have no right to sit here and tell anyone else here how to feel or react to the confederate flag. If you look at it and decide to give it that kind of raw and immense power, so be it. Am I going to sit out on my front porch and wave the confederate flag? No... But that's because it doesn't really have any meaning to me. I refuse to give that symbol any power.

 

What I will do is understand and fight for everyone's right to feel their own way about those symbols... Even if those feelings are (in my opinion) stupid or ignorant or out of touch with reality. Unless you are infringing on the rights of others, I am not going to stop you from your right to be stupid / ignorant / out of touch with reality.

 

As soon as we lose our ability to think and feel and come to our own conclusions on things -- we've lost everything.

 

Except, that symbol was created out of oppression and hatred of a race.

 

You are really gonna tell blacks who grew up in the south knowing that the flag originated from a group of people who were hell bent on keeping their race inferior, and who's leaders beat, murdered, and enslaved their ancestors to just... ignore it?

 

Also, people have tried multiple times to argue otherwise but I've heard from multiple history professors, students, and from reading myself on the subject matter. The biggest reason why the south left to begin with was because of the immense amount of money and opportunity that was available to them through slavery and that was at a compromise when a president came into power who from the get go made it clear that he wanted to put an end to this. The entire lifestyle, economy of the south was heavily dependent on slavery, and while many of the soldiers who fought didn't own slaves, all the leaders, generals, etc, were all people who made a living on the backs of those slaves.

 

This again, is by the account of the people themselves who led this rebellion. The biggest reason they went to war was to keep those specific rights, and that was the biggest reason why despite being asked to surrender multiple times they kept fighting.

 

And to me it's crazy, that some of you guys would even suggest for people who see the flag and that symbol to just, pretend like it's nothing when it was the symbol of oppression that to this day still affects some of them.

[Favre4Ever+ 4,476]

It's widely considered one of if not the best histories of the civil war ever written, but you do you.

 

 

Err. Battle Cry of Freedom is a fantastic book. I've read it myself. While I don't agree 100% with everything in it, it's still an extremely well written brief history of the Civil War. (And by brief I am only referring to the fact that its very hard to cover everything in one book, even if its 900 pages.)

 

Here: http://www.amazon.com/Battle-Cry-Freedom-The-Civil/dp/0195038630

Not saying it's a bad text, I just prefer something not so leaning in nature. It's impossible to remove all bias, I suppose -- including the subconscious, but he doesn't try very hard. Just reading portions of it online you can tell he has a flare for that northern pride.

 

If you don't believe there are inherent differences in the lifestyles of the people of the North and the South, nobody should be reading a book you wrote to begin with (not from a non-fiction perspective, anyway). Southerners are different from Northerners TODAY. Different regions of the country believe in different methods of government, have different political views, want different things... They live differently, approach life differently.

 

Again.. they do that NOW. And you want me to sit here and believe that that isn't the way it was back in the 1800s other than the fact that the North wanted to abolish slavery and the South didn't? No thanks.

 

Again, maybe I misinterpreted because when I looked it up, I read probably less than 10 pages (of 900 as Thanatos pointed out). But what I did read wasn't very promising. A book or one person's narrative being popular doesn't entrench it in fact. Otherwise, maybe that Swastika would mean something different today.

[Guest Phailadelphia]

No matter how long after we wait?

 

I'm not really debating here, I'm just curious on your opinion. So what someone once used them for has tainted them so terribly that its impossible to "redeem" their use for anything else?

In these instances I would say yes. I see your point, but on the flip side I would hope we don't allow that to happen here. We shouldn't do anything that may lead to ambiguity with these symbols because we need to remember the terrible things we've so we don't repeat those mistakes.

[Guest Phailadelphia]

 

 

Not saying it's a bad text, I just prefer something not so leaning in nature. It's impossible to remove all bias, I suppose -- including the subconscious, but he doesn't try very hard. Just reading portions of it online you can tell he has a flare for that northern pride.

 

If you don't believe there are inherent differences in the lifestyles of the people of the North and the South, nobody should be reading a book you wrote to begin with (not from a non-fiction perspective, anyway). Southerners are different from Northerners TODAY. Different regions of the country believe in different methods of government, have different political views, want different things... They live differently, approach life differently.

 

Again.. they do that NOW. And you want me to sit here and believe that that isn't the way it was back in the 1800s other than the fact that the North wanted to abolish slavery and the South didn't? No thanks.

 

Again, maybe I misinterpreted because when I looked it up, I read probably less than 10 pages (of 900 as Thanatos pointed out). But what I did read wasn't very promising. A book or one person's narrative being popular doesn't entrench it in fact. Otherwise, maybe that Swastika would mean something different today.

You prefer something less leaning? For one, McPherson is pretty unbiased. Second, the "politically incorrect guides" are literally all right wing propaganda. Edited June 28, 2015 by Phailadelphia

[Favre4Ever+ 4,476]

You prefer something less leaning? For one, McPherson is pretty unbiased. Second, the "politically incorrect guides" are literally all right wing propaganda.

That was kinda / sorta the point. While I still believe what is in there... You told me to read a left leaning liberal take on history while I told you to read something more based in fact and not fairy tale. Something more to the middle or right leaning.

[blotsfan 2,112]

I used to be against political correctness until I realized it tends to just mean "not being an asshole"