Thanatos 2,847 Posted July 7, 2016 (edited) the trouble with Trump is I don't trust him to focus on the radical element of the Muslim population, and that's really the problem with the term "radical Islam," most people focus on the "Islam" part and ignore the fact that it's a small subset of the religion's followers It's not really all that small. Hamas was favored by 1/3 of respondents in a recent poll of 11 major muslim countries, (poll was in 2013). 16% of all respondents favored suicide bombings. Egypt has nearly 50% support of Hamas. 13% of Muslims in these countries responded that they have a favorable view of Al-Qaeda. That's a lot of people- if those polls are even close to accurate. Edited July 7, 2016 by Thanatos 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241 Posted July 8, 2016 ISIS is large enough and control enough land while fighting under the guise of religious cleansing to be seen as an actual portion of the Islamic community. The majority of Muslims in the middle East are radical by American standards anyways. Not "throw gays off buildings" radical but still "Oppress women and stop freedom of speech" radical. This doesn't matter, because, again, the views of ISIS do not align with the most basic views of the Islamic faith. It's really that simple. And allowing a terrorist group to define themselves, and then running with it is only giving them a level of legitimacy that they crave, while completely insulting those who actually practice the religion and are themselves the ones most affected by the group. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cherry 1,302 Posted July 8, 2016 I can't even argue with you. If you refuse to acknowledge ISIS being rooted in Islam I can't help. ISIS doesn't represent the hundreds of millions of moderate Muslims across the globe, but they do represent an extremist portion of the Islamic religion that is incredibly prominent in third world countries. The religion isn't the issue. The group is. That said they both practice the religion, moderates and extremists alike. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241 Posted July 8, 2016 (edited) You are arguing with me as if I don't understand, or know the origin of the word "Islamic extremist", or ISIS and there origins. I have a minor in religious studies, and finished with enough credits to receive an art history major with religious focus. I know full and well it's roots and their practices, and don't need you trying to educate me on why things are the way they are. What you aren't willing to understand, or continue to overlook however is that I also understand the affect that using words like, "Islamic extremist" to describe a group that is anything but Islamic at a most basic level, is detrimental to those who actually practice it on multiple levels, and greatly benefits those who use it as a front to excuse murdering others. By the very nature of the word "Islam", an "Islamic extremist" would be one practicing extreme peace, not terrorism. That's just a terrorist. Edited July 8, 2016 by DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thanatos 2,847 Posted July 8, 2016 You are arguing with me as if I don't understand, or know the origin of the word "Islamic extremist", or ISIS and there origins. I have a minor in religious studies, and finished with enough credits to receive an art history major with religious focus. I know full and well it's roots and their practices, and don't need you trying to educate me on why things are the way they are. What you aren't willing to understand, or continue to overlook however is that I also understand the affect that using words like, "Islamic extremist" to describe a group that is anything but Islamic at a most basic level, is detrimental to those who actually practice it on multiple levels, and greatly benefits those who use it as a front to excuse murdering others. By the very nature of the word "Islam", an "Islamic extremist" would be one practicing extreme peace, not terrorism. That's just a terrorist. There are multiple passages in the Quran that cause me to question that statement. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241 Posted July 8, 2016 There are multiple passages in the Quran that cause me to question that statement. That's a personal opinion I've formed based on nothing else then the way I look at things. I'm willing to defend it, but don't take it as me saying it as fact or anything like that. Ftr Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blotsfan 2,112 Posted July 8, 2016 So can we blame Christianity for the numerous attacks by Christians all over the world? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RazorStar 4,025 Posted July 8, 2016 As it is, the religion of Islam does need to reform to at least partially conform to western standards. As it is right now, the concept of Sharia Law is completely at odds with the rights and freedoms the western world currently enjoys. What the religion thought of certain institutions hundreds of years ago does not apply today. Things like beheading and amputation for committing petty crimes, or murdering people who commit anal sex... While ISIS may be a radical terrorist group, they believe they are practicing in the Islamic faith, therefore they are. We can still write them off as nothing more than a radical sect, like the Westboro Baptist church doesn't represent the whole of Christianity, but they are Christians in a deluded perverted sense. I suppose if you're going off the etymological definition, a Islamic Extremist would be someone who is extremely devoted to peace, but in practice the Islamic religion is far too intolerant and violent to ever be considered a religion of true peace. Well... unless we're going by another etymological definition of peace and say when Islam is the only religion left, and no one can dissent, then it will be a religion of peace. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cherry 1,302 Posted July 8, 2016 So can we blame Christianity for the numerous attacks by Christians all over the world? When Christianity is the reason the attack was committed yes. Again though third world nations are way more likely to spawn extremist groups than first world nations. If Islam were the major religion in first world nations and Christianity the major religion third world countries we'd see a very similar issue. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thanatos 2,847 Posted July 8, 2016 So can we blame Christianity for the numerous attacks by Christians all over the world? Serious question born out of ignorance here: When's the last time Christians suicide bombed anything, much less a civilian target? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blotsfan 2,112 Posted July 8, 2016 I dunno about suicide bombing, but remember that attack on the planned parenthood? Also, Africa has a shitton of Christian terrorist organizations. Remember the Kony thing? Thats a "Christian" terrorist group. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cherry 1,302 Posted July 8, 2016 (edited) Third world nations are way more likely to spawn extremist groups than first world nations. If Islam were the major religion in first world nations and Christianity the major religion third world countries we'd see a very similar issue. Quoting for emphasis in response to Bloots Edited July 8, 2016 by Chernobyl426 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blotsfan 2,112 Posted July 8, 2016 So you're saying the problem isn't with Islam but instead a reaction to the poverty in these nations caused by European and US colonialism and intervention? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thanatos 2,847 Posted July 8, 2016 (edited) I dunno about suicide bombing, but remember that attack on the planned parenthood? Also, Africa has a shitton of Christian terrorist organizations. Remember the Kony thing? Thats a "Christian" terrorist group. Um no? "Kony proclaims himself the spokesperson of God and a spirit medium and claims he is visited by a multinational host of 13 spirits, including a Chinese phantom." That isn't Christian, lol. That's a cult. There's some very weird elements of Christianity in there, but he is definitely not a Christian in any sense of the word. The African "Christian terrorist" groups are almost always a mix of some African religion, normally involving multiple gods and shamanism, along with some elements of Christianity. That's a large difference from ISIL, which is simply Islam, albeit an extreme form of it, but other religions are not mixed in with it. Edited July 8, 2016 by Thanatos Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blotsfan 2,112 Posted July 8, 2016 Fine. What about the KKK? Or the planned parenthood shooter? Or the OKC bomber? Or that guy who killed 60 people in Norway? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BwareDWare94 723 Posted July 8, 2016 You're both right. Radical Christianity is not consistently resulting in the deaths of people anymore, but for an occasional happening. ISIL is bombing, shooting, beheading people, etc. All in the name of an extremely vague holy text. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cherry 1,302 Posted July 8, 2016 So you're saying the problem isn't with Islam but instead a reaction to the poverty in these nations caused by European and US colonialism and intervention? If blaming European and US intervention helps you sleep better at night, sure. Islam as a base religion isn't the problem. Just the practitioners. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cherry 1,302 Posted July 8, 2016 Fine. What about the KKK? Or the planned parenthood shooter? Or the OKC bomber? Or that guy who killed 60 people in Norway? This doesn't apply. KKK was more killing just to hold power over blacks than religious purity. OKC bomber was anti-government. Norwegian guy was pissed about immigration. The African groups aren't Christian as Than said. A mix of Christianity with some other elements. The problem is that they still radicalized a religion though. And yes part of why they have Christian elements is that awful colonialism Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oochymp 2,393 Posted July 8, 2016 This doesn't apply. KKK was more killing just to hold power over blacks than religious purity. But they've always self-identified as Christian, specifically White, Anglo-Saxon Protestants (WASPs). So all of the arguments you've made about ISIS self-identifying as Muslim apply in exactly the same way. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241 Posted July 8, 2016 The original KKK definitely was created by "protestants", and believed what their forefathers believed about Protestant Christianity being a white denomination. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thanatos 2,847 Posted July 8, 2016 (edited) Fine. What about the KKK? Or the planned parenthood shooter? Or the OKC bomber? Or that guy who killed 60 people in Norway? There is a large difference between a small group of fringe extremists that are indeed murderers, and a group that is trying to become a nation-state ruled by radical religious extremists, who *all* think it's okay to murder those you disagree with on religious issues. You might almost say the first case is doing things despite their religion, not really in the name of it. Whereas ISIL uses Islam to justify their horrific mass murders and terrorist attacks. Your examples merely happen to be people who claimed to be Christians who killed people. They are, by and large, not doing it because they think the Bible told them to. It's simply a fact- they are Christian and they killed people. Not *because* they are Christians. (With the exception of the KKK, which I will grant you. KKK is mostly defunct now, though.) Whereas ISIL is killing people in the *name of Islam*. Plus, they are far more numerous and a great deal more dangerous, (to the world at large, at least, in the US alone, random baddies are probably more dangerous at the moment). Edited July 8, 2016 by Thanatos Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cherry 1,302 Posted July 8, 2016 (edited) But they've always self-identified as Christian, specifically White, Anglo-Saxon Protestants (WASPs). So all of the arguments you've made about ISIS self-identifying as Muslim apply in exactly the same way. Identifying as Christian and killing people in the name of Christianity are two different things. How often do we hear of the KKK slaughtering people in the name of Christianity? Edited July 8, 2016 by Chernobyl426 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blotsfan 2,112 Posted July 8, 2016 (edited) If blaming European and US intervention helps you sleep better at night, sure. Islam as a base religion isn't the problem. Just the practitioners. So what exactly is your point? Edited July 8, 2016 by blotsfan Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cherry 1,302 Posted July 8, 2016 So what exactly is your point? Middle Eastern Islam is shit Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blotsfan 2,112 Posted July 8, 2016 Except for the people that don't support isis or the other terrorist attacks and just want to live their lives. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites