Nfl supports Seahawks final TD

[Dutch 874]

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000066164/article/nfl-supports-decision-to-not-overturn-seahawks-touchdown?module=HP11_headline_stack

 

Editor's note: The following is a statement issued by the NFL regarding Golden Tate's game-winning touchdown catch at the conclusion of Monday night's game between the Green Bay Packers and Seattle Seahawks:

 

In Monday's game between the Green Bay Packers and Seattle Seahawks, Seattle faced a 4th-and-10 from the Green Bay 24 with eight seconds remaining in the game.

 

Seattle quarterback Russell Wilson threw a pass into the end zone. Several players, including Seattle wide receiver Golden Tate and Green Bay safety M.D. Jennings, jumped into the air in an attempt to catch the ball.

 

While the ball is in the air, Tate can be seen shoving Green Bay cornerback Sam Shields to the ground. This should have been a penalty for offensive pass interference, which would have ended the game. It was not called and is not reviewable in instant replay.

 

When the players hit the ground in the end zone, the officials determined that both Tate and Jennings had possession of the ball. Under the rule for simultaneous catch, the ball belongs to Tate, the offensive player. The result of the play was a touchdown.

 

Replay Official Howard Slavin stopped the game for an instant replay review. The aspects of the play that were reviewable included if the ball hit the ground and who had possession of the ball. In the end zone, a ruling of a simultaneous catch is reviewable. That is not the case in the field of play, only in the end zone.

 

Referee Wayne Elliott determined that no indisputable visual evidence existed to overturn the call on the field, and as a result, the on-field ruling of touchdown stood. The NFL Officiating Department reviewed the video today and supports the decision not to overturn the on-field ruling following the instant replay review.

 

The result of the game is final.

 

Applicable rules to the play are as follows:

 

A player (or players) jumping in the air has not legally gained possession of the ball until he satisfies the elements of a catch listed here.

 

Rule 8, Section 1, Article 3 of the NFL Rule Book defines a catch:

 

A forward pass is complete (by the offense) or intercepted (by the defense) if a player, who is inbounds:

 

(a) secures control of the ball in his hands or arms prior to the ball touching the ground; and

 

(b) touches the ground inbounds with both feet or with any part of his body other than his hands; and

 

© maintains control of the ball long enough, after (a) and (b) have been fulfilled, to enable him to perform any act common to the game (i.e., maintaining control long enough to pitch it, pass it, advance with it, or avoid or ward off an opponent, etc.).

 

When a player (or players) is going to the ground in the attempt to catch a pass, Rule 8, Section 1, Article 3, Item 1 states:

 

Player Going to the Ground. If a player goes to the ground in the act of catching a pass (with or without contact by an opponent), he must maintain control of the ball throughout the process of contacting the ground, whether in the field of play or the end zone. If he loses control of the ball, and the ball touches the ground before he regains control, the pass is incomplete. If he regains control prior to the ball touching the ground, the pass is complete.

 

Rule 8, Section 1, Article 3, Item 5 states:

 

Simultaneous Catch. If a pass is caught simultaneously by two eligible opponents, and both players retain it, the ball belongs to the passers. It is not a simultaneous catch if a player gains control first and an opponent subsequently gains joint control. If the ball is muffed after simultaneous touching by two such players, all the players of the passing team become eligible to catch the loose ball.

 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000066172/article/nfl-admits-game-should-have-ended-on-tate-penalty?module=HP11_headline_stack

 

Breaking down the statement

 

 

 

The NFL released a lengthy statement on the Hail Mary conclusion to the Green Bay Packers-Seattle Seahawks game, won by the Seahawks in controversial fashion Monday night. We recommend reading it in full and coming back here.

 

The NFL said a lot in the Tuesday statement and left a lot out. Here's what we took away:

 

Seahawks win on debated Hail Mary

 

 

 

» NFL supports decision to not overturn TD

» League: Goodell didn't have power to change call

» NFL: Game should have ended on Tate penalty

» Lombardi: Resolution needed in dispute with refs

» Seahawks' Hail Mary vs. Packers will live in infamy

» Packers angry after defeat | Vent on Twitter

» Packers fans protest at Lambeau | Watch

» Tate denies push-off | 'Hawks D sets up mayhem

» McCarthy slow to adjust | Mistakes enable chaos

 

Video:

» Refs award winning TD to Seattle | Wilson reacts

» What broadcasters said | Locker-room reacts

 

Photos:

» Seahawks defeat Packers on Hail Mary

The game should have ended on a Golden Tate pass interference penalty

 

This is a key admission. It's even a little surprising. It shouldn't be lost in the explanation of the simultaneous catch explanation. It was a judgement call and is not reviewable. Packers fans probably wanted to admit some wrongdoing. They got it here. The explanation of the simultaneous catch was a little more nuanced.

 

The final play was reviewable

 

"In the end zone, a ruling of a simultaneous catch is reviewable," the statement reads. "That is not the case in the field of play, only in the end zone."

 

There was a lot confusion on this topic on Monday night. Once the officials on the field determined that both Seahawks receiver Golden Tate and Packers safety M.D. Jennings had possession of the ball, the replay official could have overturned it.

 

"Referee Wayne Elliott determined that no indisputable visual evidence existed to overturn the call on the field, and as a result, the on-field ruling of touchdown stood. The NFL Officiating Department reviewed the video today and supports the decision not to overturn the on-field ruling following the instant replay review."

 

We're surprised by this, but not entirely shocked. We've seen a lot less "indisputable" calls overturned.

 

The statement does not overtly say the officials were incorrect in determining simultaneous possession

 

The statement goes out of its way to say that Golden Tate should have been called for a pass interference. It does not say that officials were in error by ruling Tate and Jennings came down together with the ball. It also does not say it was the correct call. There was not indisputable evidence to overturn the call, according to the league.

 

Reading between the lines, the league seems to be indicating the officials may have made an error in judgement, but the judgement wasn't grievous enough to be overturned.

 

Goodell did not have authority to change game

 

In an email to Around the League's Marc Sessler, league spokesman Greg Aiello stressed that Roger Goodell, "does not have authority to change the outcome of a game when it concerns judgmental errors or routine errors of omission by game officials."

 

There were errors Monday night. There will be reaction to the play for years. The league has now spoken on the matter, but the only way to quiet down the controversy will be a resolution to the standoff with the regular NFL officials.

 

 

This day the game that we all know and love took a HUGE step backwards... They are covering the refs asses to cover their own ass to cover up the fact that they made a mistake by still having the replacement refs on the field week after week of horrible calls / noncalls and fuck ups. The NFL has never had so much controversy since Roger Goodell has been commissioner between the NFLPA lockout, punishments amongst other things, but this is crossing the line. The NFL is in total CHAOS and out of control and it's destroying our game. I never really had an opinion of Goodell before this but he sees the state of our game right now. He needs to eat his fucking pride and FIX this by getting our regular officials back.

Edited September 25, 2012 by dutchff7

[BwareDWare94 723]

There really is no other option. There was no clear cut way to rule it an INT.

[Phins4life 271]

There really is no other option. There was no clear cut way to rule it an INT.

 

Jennings' 2 hands on the ball to Tate's one says there was.

[Barracuda 629]

There really is no other option. There was no clear cut way to rule it an INT.

 

Jennings had the ball pinned to his chest with two arms around it the whole time. Tate had one hand on the ball. To me, it was clearly an INT.

[Jayrus 51]

Yes, yes, we all know the call was bullcrap. However we're just going to have to live with it. This thread isn't about the "Catch" though. This is about the League's response to the "Catch". The League has to stand by its so called "Refs" to have any power in their talks with the NFLRA. Besides, the NFL has never overturned the result of a game before, and they aren't going to start now.

[badgers 380]

I don't even care that it was originally ruled a TD anymore. We all know it wasn't, and the refs made a mistake.

 

Big fucking deal.

 

What I wanted to see was the NFL admit that the referees made a mistake. Clearly that won't happen.

[BC 331]

There really is no other option. There was no clear cut way to rule it an INT.

 

As a diehard Seahawks fan who was in attendance and wanted to win the game more than anybody, and as a high school football referee, that is not a simultaneous catch. The crazy part was that I had absolutely no way of knowing what happened. I was sitting on the opposite corner of the field. I see Tate and 4 Packer DBs get a beat on the ball, come down with it, the signal, review, verdict, and the 1st and 2nd crowd explosions and roars of excitement. We took that fucking roof off with noise last night. But man, I just couldn't help but feel inside that it was too good to be true. How could 5'10 Golden Tate go up against 6'2 DBs and win a jump ball battle. We had not one replay displayed to us at the stadium. Not one. And it was really akward leaving the stadium. I had 4 Packer fans to transport home and not one Seahawks fan. Felt like the game wasn't over on the ride home. Weirdest I will ever feel about a win. That said, I don't regret the win, and I give the highest of props to our defense for even giving us a chance in this one. Without Earl Thomas, Browner, Sherman, Clemmons, etc, we don't have those down to the wire drives.

Edited September 25, 2012 by BC

[DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241]

Jennings' 2 hands on the ball to Tate's one says there was.

 

Having 2 hands on the ball doesn't make it a catch. Going up and coming down with it in your possession makes it a catch, the full process, so deciding he has possession once you see his two hands on it seems pointless.

 

If Jennings had two hands on it, and Tate had one which eventually turns to two, how can you conclusively say that Jennings had possession of the football, and therefor an INT?

 

Everybody keeps saying he had the ball in his hands, but every replay also shows that while he was in the air Tate also had his left hand in there. So how can we come to a conclusive decision that it was a INT? I haven't seen the rule by the book yet, but I'm pretty sure nowhere on there does it say you both MUST have two hands on the ball for it to be simultaneous (don't quote me on that).

 

And if people are arguing this back and forth, and watching it a million times, how much flack should we really be giving it to one individual person for what he may or may not of seen in game action?

[DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241]

Yes, yes, we all know the call was bullcrap. However we're just going to have to live with it. This thread isn't about the "Catch" though. This is about the League's response to the "Catch". The League has to stand by its so called "Refs" to have any power in their talks with the NFLRA. Besides, the NFL has never overturned the result of a game before, and they aren't going to start now.

 

This to me is really irrelevant, because we see real refs make questionable calls that cost teams wins as well.

 

If the refs really wanna point to this as evidence the NFL needs them back, the NFL just points to the times in the past where questionable decisions have cost teams a win, fans bitch about it for a couple days then move on.

Edited September 25, 2012 by DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F

[Favre4Ever+ 4,476]

Having 2 hands on the ball doesn't make it a catch. Going up and coming down with it in your possession makes it a catch, the full process, so deciding he has possession once you see his two hands on it seems pointless.

 

If Jennings had two hands on it, and Tate had one which eventually turns to two, how can you conclusively say that Jennings had possession of the football, and therefor an INT?

 

Everybody keeps saying he had the ball in his hands, but every replay also shows that while he was in the air Tate also had his left hand in there. So how can we come to a conclusive decision that it was a INT? I haven't seen the rule by the book yet, but I'm pretty sure nowhere on there does it say you both MUST have two hands on the ball for it to be simultaneous (don't quote me on that).

 

And if people are arguing this back and forth, and watching it a million times, how much flack should we really be giving it to one individual person for what he may or may not of seen in game action?

 

You don't need to take it to the ground to make it a catch. If it goes to the ground, you obviously have to maintain.. But you don't have to go to the ground, as per the definition of a catch.

 

If Tate's arm isn't pinned against Jennings chest... Does Tate make that catch? Hard to say, maybe.. but I don't think it's even close. The ball is thrown AT JENNINGS. Jennings brings it in with both hands and it is held against his chest. He has established CONTROL of the football. What Tate does from there on out is completely irrelevant. Tate can not fight for the ball on the ground and claim simultaneous catch. Control had already been established. Interception.

 

Somebody please tell me how Tate's one arm touching the ball establishes either control or even simultaneous control. I don't think the ball was even in his hand... The ball is against Jennings chest, with Tates arm trapped behind it...

 

Although, to be fair.. The Packers had two other would-be INT called back because of penalties on the same drive less than a minute earlier.

[DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241]

You don't need to take it to the ground to make it a catch. If it goes to the ground, you obviously have to maintain.. But you don't have to go to the ground, as per the definition of a catch.

 

If Tate's arm isn't pinned against Jennings chest... Does Tate make that catch? Hard to say, maybe.. but I don't think it's even close. The ball is thrown AT JENNINGS. Jennings brings it in with both hands and it is held against his chest. He has established CONTROL of the football. What Tate does from there on out is completely irrelevant. Tate can not fight for the ball on the ground and claim simultaneous catch. Control had already been established. Interception.

 

Somebody please tell me how Tate's one arm touching the ball establishes either control or even simultaneous control. I don't think the ball was even in his hand... The ball is against Jennings chest, with Tates arm trapped behind it...

Although, to be fair.. The Packers had two other would-be INT called back because of penalties on the same drive less than a minute earlier.

 

By ground I meant just coming down with the ball and holding on to it through the whole process.

 

It means that the both touched the ball at the same time. How many times have we seen in the past where a player has had two hands on the ball in air and someone has rocked it out? And its not like Jennings grabbed it, and as he was tucking it in Tate got his hand on it, they touched it at literally the same time.

 

If Jennings has "more control", whatever that means, it doesn't matter if they both simultaneously touched the ball at the same time, and they both come down with it. Because that means they both had some control. Regardless of who has more, it's simultaneous. Unless you can conclusively tell me that Jennings had full control from the moment he got his hands on it. Which we can't, unless you want to fully disregard the fact that Tate had one hand on the ball and the other on Jennings hand. Then it comes down to who has it when Jennings hits the ground, and if they both have their hands on that ball when they come down, how can you truly say it was a INT?

Edited September 25, 2012 by DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F

[Favre4Ever+ 4,476]

By ground I meant just coming down with the ball and holding on to it through the whole process.

 

It means that the both touched the ball at the same time. How many times have we seen in the past where a player has had two hands on the ball in air and someone has rocked it out? And its not like Jennings grabbed it, and as he was tucking it in Tate got his hand on it, they touched it at literally the same time.

 

If Jennings has "more control", whatever that means, it doesn't matter if they both simultaneously touched the ball at the same time, and they both come down with it. Because that means they both had some control. Regardless of who has more, it's simultaneous. Unless you can conclusively tell me that Jennings had full control from the moment he got his hands on it. Which we can't, unless you want to fully disregard the fact that Tate had one hand on the ball and the other on Jennings hand. Then it comes down to who has it when Jennings hits the ground, and if they both have their hands on that ball when they come down, how can you truly say it was a INT?

 

Tate TOUCHING the ball does not establish control. BOTH GUYS have to have control of the football for it to be ruled a simultaneous catch, and then of course, the ruling is in favor of the offense.

 

I can absolutely tell you Jennings had full control of the football. Can you show me where Golden Tate had control? And remember, TOUCHING the ball is NOT control.

 

You can't.. Because Tate never had control. Yes he was touching the football.. but that doesn't mean anything.

[DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241]

Tate TOUCHING the ball does not establish control. BOTH GUYS have to have control of the football for it to be ruled a simultaneous catch, and then of course, the ruling is in favor of the offense.

 

I can absolutely tell you Jennings had full control of the football. Can you show me where Golden Tate had control? And remember, TOUCHING the ball is NOT control.

 

You can't.. Because Tate never had control. Yes he was touching the football.. but that doesn't mean anything.

 

It means everything. One handed catches don't exist in the NFL? Have we never seen a player use one hand to catch the ball or gain control of the ball with their fingertips?

 

Tate had one good hand and fingertips on that ball and you are telling me he had no control, at all. Even though the ball hits them both at the same time. lol, ok.

 

The way Jennings went up for that ball, if Tate had absolutely no control over it Jennings would of ripped it out of his arm, and no. Tate's hand was not "resting" or "stuck" anywhere, you see him put his hand right between the ball and Jenning's chest as its coming down. Jennings pulled himself towards the ball more then the ball went to him, and Tate had some control of that ball from the start.

 

I'd even argue that you don't really see Jennings gaining full control until he starts swing the ball towards his chest, and at that point its clear that Tate has some control on that ball.

[Favre4Ever+ 4,476]

It means everything. One handed catches don't exist in the NFL? Have we never seen a player use one hand to catch the ball or gain control of the ball with their fingertips?

 

Tate had one good hand and fingertips on that ball and you are telling me he had no control, at all. Even though the ball hits them both at the same time. lol, ok.

 

The way Jennings went up for that ball, if Tate had absolutely no control over it Jennings would of ripped it out of his arm, and no. Tate's hand was not "resting" or "stuck" anywhere, you see him put his hand right between the ball and Jenning's chest as its coming down. Jennings pulled himself towards the ball more then the ball went to him, and Tate had some control of that ball from the start.

 

I'd even argue that you don't really see Jennings gaining full control until he starts swing the ball towards his chest, and at that point its clear that Tate has some control on that ball.

 

Lol. It doesn't matter that the ball touches them at the same time.

 

And Tate's right hand is on Jennings right wrist, he then let's go and then goes back after the ball. Tates left hand is behind the ball, and gets trapped behind the ball as Jennings brings it to his gut/chest.

 

And Jennings pulls himself towards the ball holding onto nothing but the ball? Pretty sure that is completely impossible in the world of physics. The ball would have to be practically stationary (in mid air) and be able to support the weight of Jennings pulling himself onto the ball.

 

Please try doing this in your living room. You will look silly as hell, but you will realize that you are talking nonsense.

[DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241]

Lol. It doesn't matter that the ball touches them at the same time.

 

And Tate's right hand is on Jennings right wrist, he then let's go and then goes back after the ball. Tates left hand is behind the ball, and gets trapped behind the ball as Jennings brings it to his gut/chest.

 

And Jennings pulls himself towards the ball holding onto nothing but the ball? Pretty sure that is completely impossible in the world of physics. The ball would have to be practically stationary (in mid air) and be able to support the weight of Jennings pulling himself onto the ball.

 

Please try doing this in your living room. You will look silly as hell, but you will realize that you are talking nonsense.

 

Regardless of which hand I was referring to, the point still stands that he got one hand on that ball. And there's no way that you can look at that and tell me that Jennings had full control of it, and Tate had none seeing the way it came down.

 

And you are the one who claimed that the ball was thrown at Jennings, and he brings it in. The ball is coming down like a lob and Jennings adjust himself to go to the ball, and yank it and get full control. He falls down like there was clearly someone else trying to bring the ball down underneath. But it had nothing to do with Tate having one hand on the ball. Absolutely nothing. Jennings had full control of the ball once he touched it.

[BC 331]

DMac, I do think Jennings has full control. He has two hands on the ball. Firmly, all of the way to the ground. Tate has one hand on the ball. Then at a couple of different moments he gets two, but it isn't a firm grasp, more of a reach around and squeezing his way into Jennings hands and the ball.

[Favre4Ever+ 4,476]

Regardless of which hand I was referring to, the point still stands that he got one hand on that ball. And there's no way that you can look at that and tell me that Jennings had full control of it, and Tate had none seeing the way it came down.

 

And you are the one who claimed that the ball was thrown at Jennings, and he brings it in. The ball is coming down like a lob and Jennings adjust himself to go to the ball, and yank it and get full control. He falls down like there was clearly someone else trying to bring the ball down underneath. But it had nothing to do with Tate having one hand on the ball. Absolutely nothing. Jennings had full control of the ball once he touched it.

 

The only reason you think Tate has a miraculous one handed catch is because Jennings is holding the ball up and the ball is on the fingers of Tate. Your fingers on the ball is not control, brah. The ball does not sit in Tate hand until after Jennings has the ball in both hands and is bringing it down. Clear as day.

 

But at least you are finally beginning to talk a little sense. Glad you came around... Better late than never, as they say.

[DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241]

 

If when yall see that, you all think that there is no way that Tate has -or could have- any control of the ball, and Jennings has all, when contacted that ball hits his hand, then I'm just looking at it too hard.

Edited September 25, 2012 by DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F

[Favre4Ever+ 4,476]

You need to slow that down, because honestly.. that is the best view I have seen yet. That proves my point... Jennings is holding the ball on the tip of Tates finger tips, and Tates right hand isn't even on the ball, it's on Jennings wrist.

 

Case closed. Thanks Dmac.

Edited September 25, 2012 by Favre4Ever

[Dutch 874]

 

If when yall see that, you all think that there is no way that Tate has -or could have- any control of the ball, and Jennings has all, when contacted that ball hits his hand, then I'm just looking at it too hard.

 

 

That is soooo an interception. He grasps the ball with two hands and secures the ball as he is falling down completing the catching process.

[DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241]

Like I said, I'm not buying this thought process that you guys establish that because he has two hands on the ball, and Tate only has one, it means he's secured it and its a catch.

 

It hits his hand at the same time as Jennings. For all we know, he could very well be grabbing the ball with the top half of his left hand, in which case you could make the argument that he has some control. Touching the ball or putting hands around it doesn't mean he has control, as far as I'm concerned. It means the ball is in his hands, bringing it in means you have control, And I really don't see how anyone can say with 100% certainty that Tate had possibly no control of that ball at all as Jennings is bringing it in.

[Favre4Ever+ 4,476]

Like I said, I'm not buying this thought process that you guys establish that because he has two hands on the ball, and Tate only has one, it means he's secured it and its a catch.

 

It hits his hand at the same time as Jennings. For all we know, he could very well be grabbing the ball with the top half of his left hand, in which case you could make the argument that he has some control. Touching the ball or putting hands around it doesn't mean he has control, as far as I'm concerned. It means the ball is in his hands, bringing it in means you have control, And I really don't see how anyone can say with 100% certainty that Tate had possibly no control of that ball at all as Jennings is bringing it in.

No.. it doesn't hit his hand.. It's on the tips of his fingers, and that's not a catch.

[Thanatos 2,847]

Here's the end of the story.

 

If Jennings isn't there, Tate doesn't make the catch. Tate is using Jenning's body to help him catch the ball- that's called a trap. Not that he can't do that, and then at some point gain possession of the ball, but he never gains possession. His fingertips are on the ball, if Jennings isn't there, it hits off Tate's hand and most likely goes to the ground, (obviously, assuming Tate takes the exact same angle. We're speaking purely hypothetical here).

 

If Tate isn't there, Jennings does make the catch. He has both hands on the ball, full control, and is in no way using Tate's body to catch the ball. Tate's arm is under the ball, trapped against Jenning's chest. That is not control.

 

What you are overlooking is the difference between attempted possession, and possession. Tate could have adjusted and gotten possession of the ball... but if he ever did so, it was far after Jennings already has possession of the football. Interception. All four Seahawks fans on here think it is.

 

This is a clear call and the refs blew it. This isn't a judgment thing, this is plain and simple an interception that was ruled a touchdown.

Edited September 26, 2012 by Thanatos19

[oochymp 2,393]

[Zack_of_Steel+ 3,014]

At least there's one person that agrees with me (Dmac).