Zack's top 21 QBs of All Time

[Phins4life 271]

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The Marks brothers were a pretty damn good duo at WR for a decade until Mark Clayton was replaced by Irving Fryar for the 1993 season. You're right the Dolphins running game during Marino's tenure was always pretty shitty.

 

Edit: lulz then in '93 they got another Mark at receiver.

 

Interesting that you and Zach bring that up. CHFF had an article about this a couples years back, presenting an argument against the usual defenses as to why Marino never got a ring. When It comes to Dan I can become a bit of a homer, but the facts presented were eye opening to say the least. The numbers showed (at least how they presented them) that Marino actually had solid run support through most of his best years. If I manage to find the article I'll post it.

[Jules 98]

Marino threw the ball too much. So do many of todays QBs but the rules favor the QB today.

 

Marino was ahead of his time actually and was basically Peyton Manning in a different era.

 

In Marino's second season in the league at 23 years old he had 14 wins, 48 tds 17 ints and 5000 yards. In an era when the passer did not get the breaks they do today!!!

 

IMO Marino's record setting season was MORE impressive then either of Manning or Brady's when they broke the record.

 

They lost the SB that year to the 49ers but those 49ers teams were just....better too. All around.

 

Even in that SB loss Marino threw the ball 50 times. Montana only threw it 35 times. That's why today I often say "the Dan Marino style of offense" when I see QBs chuck it up to 40 to 50 times in a playoff loss......

 

Marino gets heavily underrated due to his playoff let downs. But, that man was possibly the best pure passer of all time.....before the league was as into passing.

[Jules 98]

Furthermore, are you really going to complain about XL when in the game prior Polamalu intercepted your guy Peyton and the refs ruled it an incomplete pass despite the fact that he clearly took two steps, dived, rolled with it and kneed it out of his own arm as he was getting to his feet. The NFL outright stated that it was the incorrect call after the game. They did not do the same following XL.

 

 

I am well aware of this. Heck for all I know a lot of people had money on the Colts and panicked......

 

But, even if we got the break we would still blow it. From start to finish that was a huge choke job by the Colts as a whole. Not just Peyton...the ENTIRE TEAM. It was sad.

 

Dungy got outcoached by Cowher too. I vividly remember in my mind seeing Cowher almost trick us and starting the game out passing instead of running. It's as if Dungy expected the run. Ben passed early on and they built a lead with the Steelers. We never came back until later and it was too late. We got into panic mode.

 

And we did not run the ball enough. Edge was often to me too under utilized in big games. And again in the SB loss to the Saints, we never ran the ball enough even when Addai was killing it.

 

Peyton Manning was Dan Marino too often in big games. Often so is Drew Brees. When the Saints lost to the 49ers in the playoffs a few years ago in SF all Brees did was throw the ball......there was NO RUN GAME.

 

I often feel too many of today's offenses are too pass heavy and it bites them in the playoffs. If you want the glory as the QB in the end and to shed the choker label then build a balanced team......run the freaking ball too. Of course to be fair to Brees the 49ers were shutting down the run so he often did not have a choice in the matter.

 

And when a QB gets too freaking pass happy the interceptions are going to pop out at the worst times....

 

 

JMO

[blotsfan 2,112]

So you think we just happen to be in an era where 3 of the 4 best qbs of all time are playing?

[Dutch 874]

So you think we just happen to be in an era where 3 of the 4 best qbs of all time are playing?

 

Reminder for +1 when off CD.

Edited July 9, 2013 by dutchff7

[Glanvilles Grits 142]

Aaron Rodgers is an amazing player, definitely one of the finest I've ever seen at Quarterback. He's perfect in pretty much every facet of the game that he needs to be. My problem though with him so high is the fact that it's still so early for him.

 

Then again, I've never really been a fan of having guys still playing in discussion for greatest of all time. You never know how someones career can change paths. The butterfly effect works in mysterious ways sometimes.

[GA_Eagle 595]

He's up there because he has been about the clutchest QB outside of Montana (and Ben) in history. He got his teams to three Super Bowls, but lost because he didn't have a defense until the end of his career. His stats aren't great, but he did what it took to win and he did have some nice seasons at the end of his career when Shanahan got him playing within a decent system.

 

Conversely, Unitas had a stifling defense in Baltimore that was often in the top 3, and always in the top 10. Unitas was, outside of his "The Greatest Game Ever Played" comeback, as unclutch as they come.

 

Unitas is about the most overrated QB ever, next to Marino and Peyton. I feel that I was generous in only notching 5 of his playoff performances as "poor". He played 9 career playoff games and in 5 of those he was abysmal. In his lone Super Bowl win he was 3-9, 88 yards, 1 TD, 2 INT. I am of the school of thought that pre-Super Bowl "Championships" are to be taken with a healthy dose of salt, being that all a team had to do was win one playoff game in a 12 team league. Unitas was worse than Peyton in the playoffs, and that's pretty damned hard to do. Unitas was a regular season chucker in the mold of Peyton, Marino, Moon, and to a lesser extent Favre.

 

 

I guess what I'm saying is I understand the Unitas ranking but not the Elway one. His defense was consistently in or near the top 10 in either scoring or yards allowed and often both, at least looking at his teams that went to the playoffs. I'd say you are underrating his defenses. He consistently came up short until he didn't, but he wasn't any more or less clutch than say, Marino, or really Unitas as far as his come from behind wins and game winning drives are concerned. Unitas played in less games and play off games due to how the league was organized too, so his come from behind numbers being slightly less is not an issue for me.

 

I don't know. I think the legend of Elway's greatness, especially with people that grew up in the 90's and remember him vividly going out on top, is greater than his actual merit. I would put him in the top 20 QB's all time but not top 10. I think they are very comparable and both have different things going for them. Each had 5 championship appearances. Unitas rode his defense to his Super Bowl win, and played decent to very well in his other two championship wins. But was poor in his other losses, despite having a good to great team around him. Elway rode Terrell Davis and the defense to his first Super Bowl win and played very well in his second Super Bowl (and last game of his career) but stunk up the joint in other appearances, often with a very good defense (1989 was VERY good, if not best in the league).

 

Johnny U was also statistically superior to nearly every other player of his era (except notably Bart Starr who was better but with less attempts and less amassed stats and I would put second on my imaginary list) unlike Elway who has worse statistics than many of his contemporaries.

 

Elway WAS clutch, I'll give you that, but I think even that is a bit overblown. He was a "couldn't win the big one" guy for most of his career, largely due to his poor play in big games, as well. I count 4 playoff games, just looking quickly that I would think of as very good games. Out of 21 games, that's not a ton. I see many average to ok games and quite a few that, just looking at the game stats and not doing a ton of analysis look pretty bad.

Edited July 10, 2013 by GA_Eagle

[BJORN 679]

Eli over Peyton and Marino SMFH !!!!!!

[.AirMcNair. 1,232]

So you think we just happen to be in an era where 3 of the 4 best qbs of all time are playing?

 

Yes(well, I don't completely agree with his placements of some QBs, but we do have a lot of all-time greats playing the QB position right now).

 

We're also in an era where we have/had Marvin Harrison, Andre Johnson, Calvin Johnson, Larry Fitzgerald and Randy Moss playing. 5 guys you can argue/will eventually argue with the pace they're on as 5 of the greatest receivers to ever play the game.

 

Or the 70s where we had Randy White, Bob Lilly, Merlin Olsen, Joe Greene and Alan Page all playing at DT at the same time.

 

Or the 90s with Thurman Thomas, Emmitt Smith, Barry Sanders, Curtis Martin and Masrhall Faulk playing at RB at the same time.

 

I could keep going with other positions for certain eras, too. It's really not that far fetched to believe.

[blotsfan 2,112]

I think it has a lot to do with how positions are helped by the rules of the era. And there will always be a good amount of great players in the league at once, but that's just a crazy amount. Those examples you listed, I think those were all great, but not top 5 caliber (well I don't know much about DTs in the 70s). I just think zacks stats don't take the passing inflation into account.

 

Not to mention Rodgers has 1 playoff win outside of his super bowl year (against joe Webb), so I dont see how you can praise his postseason play while criticizing Manning

[.AirMcNair. 1,232]

I think it has a lot to do with how positions are helped by the rules of the era. And there will always be a good amount of great players in the league at once, but that's just a crazy amount. Those examples you listed, I think those were all great, but not top 5 caliber (well I don't know much about DTs in the 70s). I just think zacks stats don't take the passing inflation into account.

 

Not to mention Rodgers has 1 playoff win outside of his super bowl year (against joe Webb), so I dont see how you can praise his postseason play while criticizing Manning

 

Well, it's hard to say in the long run with AJ/Fitz/Calvin, but Moss is a top 5 receiver all time, and Harrison has a good case to be put there as well.

 

Barry and Emmitt are a lot of people's #1 and #2 all time at RB, and Curtis Martin, Thurman Thomas and Marshall Faulk are mainstays on peoples top 10s.

 

It's always going to be opinion based for lists, so while you may not view them as top 4 or whatever, they're still considered by the vast majority of people to be among the greatest ever at their position.

 

And it's playoff performance, not playoff wins.

 

People blur the line between those two far too often. There's a reason why Terry Bradshaw has 4 superbowl rings and is only 19th on Zack's list. That should tell you alone that wins isn't his basis, even though the format/stats he has listed should have told you that to begin with.

[.AirMcNair. 1,232]

I also just noticed I forgot to include TO on the receivers list for this decade...lot of all-time greats at receiver this era.

[DavethePanther 37]

Angry much? Respect goes a long way on these boards. Try to show some.

 

 

 

 

There were indeed some questionable calls in that game, not least of all the Pierre Thomas TD that should have been ruled down shy of the EZ. But that's Childress' fault for not challenging...it isn't like he didn't have the chance to. Besides, Peterson neutralized that score with one of his own on the very next drive.

 

In all actuality, the Saints making the SB has more to do with the 10,000 things the Vikings did to lose the game than bad officiating. Just a quick glance at the ball control numbers tells you nearly everything you need to know. It shouldn't have been close. Between the lucky breaks that didn't get cashed in (including a RZ fumble following a muffed punt recovery), horrible overthrows, blown advantages, and late game turnovers (including Favre's classic across-the-body interception a la 2007 NFCCG against NY), the only people to blame for the Vikings not making it that year are the Vikings.

 

But that in no way minimizes how Brees played. He did what he could with what that stingy Vikings defense gave him, and he did it very well. Most importantly, he didn't cost his team the game with bad decisions. Favre cannot say the same thing.

 

 

 

Precisely. Try again next time.

 

Who's angry? You insult one of the greatest QB's ever to play the game. Call him Unclutch and I am showing a lack of respect.

 

I get negative rep (which I could give 2 $hits about) because I disagree or post my own comments.

[Zack_of_Steel+ 3,014]

[/size]

 

The Marks brothers were a pretty damn good duo at WR for a decade until Mark Clayton was replaced by Irving Fryar for the 1993 season. You're right the Dolphins running game during Marino's tenure was always pretty shitty.

 

Edit: lulz then in '93 they got another Mark at receiver.

 

Interesting that you and Zach bring that up. CHFF had an article about this a couples years back, presenting an argument against the usual defenses as to why Marino never got a ring. When It comes to Dan I can become a bit of a homer, but the facts presented were eye opening to say the least. The numbers showed (at least how they presented them) that Marino actually had solid run support through most of his best years. If I manage to find the article I'll post it.

 

You two bring up good points, which only serves to bolster my low opinion of Dan Marino and his regular season stat-padding ways.

 

 

Marino gets heavily underrated due to his playoff let downs. But, that man was possibly the best pure passer of all time.....before the league was as into passing.

 

He was a great player until it mattered, like Peyton. The regular season means next to nothing, which is why Eli and Roger are up ahead of them, despite their poorer showings in the regular season. Leadership and the ability to take the team to championships and win them >>>>>>>>> Regular season stats.

 

So you think we just happen to be in an era where 3 of the 4 best qbs of all time are playing?

 

Yes. Air nailed it.

 

 

I guess what I'm saying is I understand the Unitas ranking but not the Elway one. His defense was consistently in or near the top 10 in either scoring or yards allowed and often both, at least looking at his teams that went to the playoffs. I'd say you are underrating his defenses. He consistently came up short until he didn't, but he wasn't any more or less clutch than say, Marino, or really Unitas as far as his come from behind wins and game winning drives are concerned. Unitas played in less games and play off games due to how the league was organized too, so his come from behind numbers being slightly less is not an issue for me.

 

I don't know. I think the legend of Elway's greatness, especially with people that grew up in the 90's and remember him vividly going out on top, is greater than his actual merit. I would put him in the top 20 QB's all time but not top 10. I think they are very comparable and both have different things going for them. Each had 5 championship appearances. Unitas rode his defense to his Super Bowl win, and played decent to very well in his other two championship wins. But was poor in his other losses, despite having a good to great team around him. Elway rode Terrell Davis and the defense to his first Super Bowl win and played very well in his second Super Bowl (and last game of his career) but stunk up the joint in other appearances, often with a very good defense (1989 was VERY good, if not best in the league).

 

Johnny U was also statistically superior to nearly every other player of his era (except notably Bart Starr who was better but with less attempts and less amassed stats and I would put second on my imaginary list) unlike Elway who has worse statistics than many of his contemporaries.

 

Elway WAS clutch, I'll give you that, but I think even that is a bit overblown. He was a "couldn't win the big one" guy for most of his career, largely due to his poor play in big games, as well. I count 4 playoff games, just looking quickly that I would think of as very good games. Out of 21 games, that's not a ton. I see many average to ok games and quite a few that, just looking at the game stats and not doing a ton of analysis look pretty bad.

 

Elway's defenses consistently shit the bed in the playoffs. Yes, he could have done more, but his defense gave him shit to work with and his offensive line allowed him to get sacked 4 times against Pittsburgh, 4/5/6 times in the Super Bowls against NYG/WAS/SF, and 4 against the Bills. Elway's only two close losses where his interceptions were the cause of the loss were in 1984 against the Steelers and in 1991 against the Bills (the pick-6 was the difference in this game).

 

In each game he was under constant assault behind a poor OL and working with a defense that didn't show up to play. Once Gary Zimmerman and company gave him a line to work with and his defense began performing, he put up some nice games and won two rings.

 

 

 

Eli over Peyton and Marino SMFH !!!!!!

 

So you'd rather have either of the two QBs that look great during the season, but crush your heart during the playoffs year after year over the guy that stamps out the competition in the playoffs and has won two rings thanks to his own performance?

 

Yes(well, I don't completely agree with his placements of some QBs, but we do have a lot of all-time greats playing the QB position right now).

 

We're also in an era where we have/had Marvin Harrison, Andre Johnson, Calvin Johnson, Larry Fitzgerald and Randy Moss playing. 5 guys you can argue/will eventually argue with the pace they're on as 5 of the greatest receivers to ever play the game.

 

Or the 70s where we had Randy White, Bob Lilly, Merlin Olsen, Joe Greene and Alan Page all playing at DT at the same time.

 

Or the 90s with Thurman Thomas, Emmitt Smith, Barry Sanders, Curtis Martin and Masrhall Faulk playing at RB at the same time.

 

I could keep going with other positions for certain eras, too. It's really not that far fetched to believe.

 

Well, it's hard to say in the long run with AJ/Fitz/Calvin, but Moss is a top 5 receiver all time, and Harrison has a good case to be put there as well.

 

Barry and Emmitt are a lot of people's #1 and #2 all time at RB, and Curtis Martin, Thurman Thomas and Marshall Faulk are mainstays on peoples top 10s.

 

It's always going to be opinion based for lists, so while you may not view them as top 4 or whatever, they're still considered by the vast majority of people to be among the greatest ever at their position.

 

And it's playoff performance, not playoff wins.

 

People blur the line between those two far too often. There's a reason why Terry Bradshaw has 4 superbowl rings and is only 19th on Zack's list. That should tell you alone that wins isn't his basis, even though the format/stats he has listed should have told you that to begin with.

 

Edited July 10, 2013 by Zack_of_Steel

[Phins4life 271]

Myth: Marino had no running game.

 

Cold, Hard Football Facts: Marino joined Miami at a time when it had a reputation of being the best ground team in football. In fact, the year before Marino was drafted, the Dolphins made it all the way to the Super Bowl on the strength of a great running game and great defense.

 

In Marino's rookie year, 1983, the Dolphins racked up 2,150 yards on the ground. In 1984, Marino set single-season records with 48 touchdowns and 5,084 yards passing. The Dolphins still managed 1,918 rushing yards and averaged 4.0 yards per carry.

 

It would be disingenuous to say that the Dolphins were a great running team later in Marino's career. Of course, much of that can be attributed to too few rushing attempts and a misguided faith placed in Marino's arm.

 

But consider this: The New England Patriots went 17-2 and won the Super Bowl last year while averaging a woeful 3.4 yards per rushing attempt. The Dolphins averaged more than 3.4 yards per rushing attempt 14 times in Marino's 17 seasons. In other words, Marino's Dolphins ran the ball more than well enough to win Super Bowls.

 

 

The Marino Mythology

 

Found it...although it was more like a decade ago than a couple years lol. Time flies.

 

And while I was diggin for that one, I found 2 other articles that seemed applicable to the "clutch" discussion.

 

NFLN's Top 10 Clutch QB Analysis

 

Elway Conspiracy

 

 

Some good reads.

[Phins4life 271]

Who's angry? You insult one of the greatest QB's ever to play the game. Call him Unclutch and I am showing a lack of respect.

 

I get negative rep (which I could give 2 $hits about) because I disagree or post my own comments.

 

If you don't give a shit about negative rep, why do you mention it every time you get it? No one cares that you don't care.

 

It's funny...I went back over my post and didn't find one mention of Unitas. I wasn't disagreeing with what you said about him. I was calling you out for being way off base on your analysis of the 2009 NFC Title game and for being a dick to a respected member of the boards (which is probably why you got negged, genius) who probably put a good deal of work into that project. Zach may be a wise ass, but talking out of his ass isn't one of his regular hobbies around here. He's one of the smarter posters you'll get to know. Doesn't mean he isn't wrong on occasion.

 

If you disagree with his results (which he caveated from the beginning that some of it was opinion-based), then change your tampon and create your own list with the almighty Unitas at the top. But I have news for you...this isn't the 50's and 60's anymore, and quarterbacks with better overall resumes and talent than him have come along since he hung the cleats up. Blame it on the evolution of the NFL or whatever else you want. If you don't want to accept that, then it's your ignorant burden to bear.

 

You should be happy that he got included in Zach's list, over the countless number of QB's who have played the game since it was invented.

[BJORN 679]

So you'd rather have either of the two QBs that look great during the season, but crush your heart during the playoffs year after year over the guy that stamps out the competition in the playoffs and has won two rings thanks to his own performance?

Obviously.....they are the better quarterbacks. Good, clutch QB no doubt but unless you think rings define a quarterback...Eli < Marino, Peyton.

[Phins4life 271]

Obviously.....they are the better quarterbacks. Good, clutch QB no doubt but unless you think rings define a quarterback...Eli < Marino, Peyton.

 

He doesn't. He placed Bradshaw near the bottom of the list...he was 4-0 in the SB. Unfortunately, performance in the playoffs DOES define QB's to some extent. Marino and Peyton could put Eli to shame in the regular season, but both have mediocre records in the post-season. Trust me, as a Phins fan it's a hard pill to swallow.

[BJORN 679]

He doesn't. He placed Bradshaw near the bottom of the list...he was 4-0 in the SB. Unfortunately, performance in the playoffs DOES define QB's to some extent. Marino and Peyton could put Eli to shame in the regular season, but both have mediocre records in the post-season. Trust me, as a Phins fan it's a hard pill to swallow.

Yeah but once again..dig deeper than the record and it will show that Peyton is generally pretty good himself in the playoffs.

 

Eli's postseason stats

 

Funny how no one speaks of 05, 06, and 08...what about missing the playoffs in 09, 10, and 12? IMO he is just too inconsistent to be above or even paralel with his brother.

 

Have to say though....2011 dynamite postseason for Eli.

Edited July 10, 2013 by BJORN

[Dutch 874]

Yeah but once again..dig deeper than the record and it will show that Peyton is generally pretty good himself in the playoffs.

 

Eli's postseason stats

 

Funny how no one speaks of 05, 06, and 08...what about missing the playoffs in 09, 10, and 12? IMO he is just too inconsistent to be above or even paralel with his brother.

 

Have to say though....2011 dynamite postseason for Eli.

 

Your link is broken. You probably have to take the http out then paste your link in the box.

[GA_Eagle 595]

Your link is broken. You probably have to take the http out then paste your link in the box.

 

http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/5526/seasontype/3/eli-manning

[Jules 98]

I still have a tough time comparing the great classic retired QBs to the current ones still playing. The game has changed so much and as time goes on I think we fear defenses less and less due to the wussification of the NFL.

 

I am a huge fan of most of the classic QBs. I have a tough time ranking them. Growing up though Unitas was pretty much the Jesus of football according to my dad....and other old school Colts fans.

 

And the game is different now then even in 1998 when Peyton Manning was a rookie or back when Favre was in his prime years.

 

You can nitpick QBs and any player all day freaking long....something will always come up.

 

I have absolutely no issues with placing Montana as #1 of all time either. I think he is far better then Brady who many compare him to and it's not even close to me. Montana was the ultimate overall winner in my book but even he had luck too. Like when the Bengals player dropped his interception in the Super Bowl...I think it was Montana's third SB.

 

And the records that are being broken these days can sometimes bug me. Brees broke that Unitas TD record. It's EASIER these days to break them.....QBs are setting/breaking records all the time....and I feel some teams run up the score too and GO for the records blatantly.

 

And I have no way of proving this but it's my hunch that Marino wins a ring today with a good team with the way the league favors the passing game.

 

 

JMO of course.

[KempBolt 498]

I don't think Dan Fouts gets enough love. He set the record for passing yards, and then broke it again- twice. Yeah, he didn't win a ring, but that's a legit case of having a bad, bad defense. The one year he likely could have done it, he had to play in one of the coldest NFL games ever in Cincinnati. His hands literally couldn't hold the football. I legitimately think that we could have taken it all that year, but woulda coulda shoulda I guess. In any case, he was one of (if not the, if you adjust for era) most prolific passers ever. And he rarely gets mentioned with the greats.

[Jules 98]

I don't think Dan Fouts gets enough love. He set the record for passing yards, and then broke it again- twice. Yeah, he didn't win a ring, but that's a legit case of having a bad, bad defense. The one year he likely could have done it, he had to play in one of the coldest NFL games ever in Cincinnati. His hands literally couldn't hold the football. I legitimately think that we could have taken it all that year, but woulda coulda shoulda I guess. In any case, he was one of (if not the, if you adjust for era) most prolific passers ever. And he rarely gets mentioned with the greats.

 

I agree. But, lets keep this in mind KempBolt.

 

Fouts is just an epic choker who can't compare to the current greats such as Eli and Big Ben.

 

 

[KempBolt 498]

I agree. But, lets keep this in mind KempBolt.

 

Fouts is just an epic choker who can't compare to the current greats such as Eli and Big Ben.

 

 

 

Lol. I keep forgetting!