Zack's top 21 QBs of All Time

[Zack_of_Steel+ 3,014]

So a few weeks back I put together this spreadsheet and I keep forgetting to post it, but the Manning/Brady thread reminded me, so here we go.

 

Many of you will vehemently disagree, but I could care less.

 

These stats were not the only criteria that I used to evaluate the players. I tried to use a balance between playoff performance, regular season statistics, intangibles, and situational variables. For example, Ben receives a small pass on his statistics because he was 22 and 23 in two of his bad playoff performances and one of his losses. He was hit in the face by a car and had an appendectomy in 2006 during his worst season. He's been hampered by an awful OL and clueless OC for much of his career. Conversely, Steve Young walked into a great situation in San Francisco, yet his statistics are nearly identical at this point, save for the fact that Ben has had more success in the playoffs.

 

Now, I have broken the list down into tiers. The first tier are the cream of the crop, great in the regular season and post season. 2-5 are pretty interchangeable.

 

The second tier are clearly the next step down, but still some of the best QBs to play the game. They either lacked something in their game or had some poor playoff performances that hurt their stock.

 

Eli and Rodger are here purely for their clutch and overall postseason accolades. I'd take either of the proven winners over the next group, easy.

 

Unitas, Marino, Manning, and Moon all fall drastically low because they were simply regular season warriors who did nothing in the playoffs. Favre falls in here because he's closer to these guys than any other tier.

 

The last group is a group of solid QBs that I felt deserved mention, but, like the second tier, only more drastic, had holes in their overall profile

 

Download link:

http://www.mediafire.com/?ybpc734h7vsvhvf

 

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B9srhYIHrQquQ0UtYmRRczJqN0E/edit?usp=sharing

 

[.AirMcNair. 1,232]

Not a bad list at all.

 

I'm reluctant to already put A-Rod on my list(at all, as in not high or low, just not qualifying) due to only 5 years, but we all know he'll be up there when he retires anyway, so I guess I should have just put him on mine anyway.

[BigBen07 285]

Very well put together, Zack! I'm quite impressed at your criteria for your picks.

[RazorStar 4,025]

Things I like:

Bart Starr getting respect. Sure he's not number 1 on here, but can't win em all. 5 is well deserved.

Eli > Peyton. This really should be accepted as truth by now. Peyton does the more cerbral QB audibles crap, but Eli is the more talented player, better leader, and cooler under pressure.

 

Things that surprise me a little:

Drew Brees being so high. Not that I had paid much attention to it, but looking at Brees in the playoffs, and he constantly has ridiculous games. I guess it's more I'm surprised that the evidence is there to put him so highly.

 

I think Johnny U may be a little low, but that's just because I've always though he was vastly ahead of the field of QB's statistically that were around when he played and that'd be worth something.

 

Not a bad list though.

[RANGA+ 1,210]

Nice to see Bart Starr get some props. Dat 9-1 postseason record

[Zack_of_Steel+ 3,014]

Surprised there's not been any uproar thus far, haha.

 

@Air - Yeah, I had some reservations as well, but his five years have been fucking ridiculous and unless he has a career-ending injury or something similar, he'll be up there, like you said.

 

@Razor - Brees surprised me as well. He's been phenomenal in the playoffs and, had he had some semblance of a defense during his career, we might be talking about putting him higher. Here's what I wrote when I was going to pick him in the fantasy draft:

 

Drew Brees has been one of the greatest QBs of our era for years, but for some reason he's never mentioned with the greatest QBs of all time. To that, I ask, "why?"

 

Brees has put up some insane numbers through his career thus far and, if he had had a defense to speak of for more than one season, he may be in the conversation for greatest ever. No QB can completely carry a team with an awful defense to championships regularly, which is why Brees has only one ring. The best defense he's had to work with was the #4 defense in 2010, which, as we all know, shit the bed in the playoffs against Seattle, despite Brees's great effort at a comeback, losing 41-36. The next best defenses he's had were #13 and #18 during his time in San Diego. The rest have been #22-one of the worst defenses of all time.

 

On top of this, Brees has never had star receiving options. He's had a myriad of decent-good players, but until Jimmy Graham, no real "star". He passed for 5,000 yards without having a 1,000 yard receiver. Just think about that.

 

The real kicker, however, is Drew's performance in the playoffs. In the post season Brees has been the most efficient and deadly QB of all time (the only comparable player being Bart Starr, who had a great defense to back him). Through 9 games, Brees has wrecked defenses and has never had a bad game (Starr had one).

[BigBen07 285]

Nice to see Bart Starr get some props. Dat 9-1 postseason record

 

He was something else in the playoffs, that's for sure.

[GA_Eagle 595]

I'm not a huge Elway fan, so I think he's a little high. I guess my question is why is he so much higher than, say... Johnny Unitas? I guess just trying to figure out what moved Elway up so far, or Unitas so low. Unitas did get 3 Championships, has the same playoff winning %, roughly the same completion rate despite playing decades before Elway...

 

I guess not saying you're wrong just wondering what the thinking is.

[BradyFan81 404]

A couple issues I have with it are Eli Manning is way too fucking high. He is not even a top 10 QB in the league currently IMO.

 

Also seems like it's very numbers heavy, which gives quite an advantage towards the modern era QBs with the friendly-passing rules in place. Most of those guys are 90s QBs or current QBs so I would like to see more credit given to the QBs of earlier decades.

 

It's a good list though and it's clear you put a lot of work into it.

[Zack_of_Steel+ 3,014]

I'm not a huge Elway fan, so I think he's a little high. I guess my question is why is he so much higher than, say... Johnny Unitas? I guess just trying to figure out what moved Elway up so far, or Unitas so low. Unitas did get 3 Championships, has the same playoff winning %, roughly the same completion rate despite playing decades before Elway...

 

I guess not saying you're wrong just wondering what the thinking is.

 

He's up there because he has been about the clutchest QB outside of Montana (and Ben) in history. He got his teams to three Super Bowls, but lost because he didn't have a defense until the end of his career. His stats aren't great, but he did what it took to win and he did have some nice seasons at the end of his career when Shanahan got him playing within a decent system.

 

Conversely, Unitas had a stifling defense in Baltimore that was often in the top 3, and always in the top 10. Unitas was, outside of his "The Greatest Game Ever Played" comeback, as unclutch as they come.

 

Unitas is about the most overrated QB ever, next to Marino and Peyton. I feel that I was generous in only notching 5 of his playoff performances as "poor". He played 9 career playoff games and in 5 of those he was abysmal. In his lone Super Bowl win he was 3-9, 88 yards, 1 TD, 2 INT. I am of the school of thought that pre-Super Bowl "Championships" are to be taken with a healthy dose of salt, being that all a team had to do was win one playoff game in a 12 team league. Unitas was worse than Peyton in the playoffs, and that's pretty damned hard to do. Unitas was a regular season chucker in the mold of Peyton, Marino, Moon, and to a lesser extent Favre.

 

[Zack_of_Steel+ 3,014]

A couple issues I have with it are Eli Manning is way too fucking high. He is not even a top 10 QB in the league currently IMO.

 

I answered this in the initial post.

 

Eli and Rodger are here purely for their clutch and overall postseason accolades. I'd take either of the proven winners over the next group, easy.

 

Eli has been absolutely superb in the playoffs and year after year we see him near the top of articles such as passing under pressure and 4th quarter play. He's definitely a top-10 QB today and if he keeps up the postseason success, he could climb a bit higher on the list. I don't care if a QB plays like Mark Sanchez in the regular season (Eli doesn't), if he can stomp throats in the playoffs and get my team some rings, give me that QB.

 

Also seems like it's very numbers heavy, which gives quite an advantage towards the modern era QBs with the friendly-passing rules in place. Most of those guys are 90s QBs or current QBs so I would like to see more credit given to the QBs of earlier decades.

 

The only numbers that are heavily weighed are YPA, TD%, and to a much lesser extent, INT% (with concessions for those that played in earlier eras of higher interceptions). YPA, as Razor has shown, has trended upward since 2004, but it's still the single best indicator of QB efficiency and talent and, despite different eras, it fluctuates enough that it's is a valid criteria.

 

Here's Razor's graph through 2010.

 

[Jules 98]

nevermind

Edited July 9, 2013 by Jules

[SteVo+ 3,702]

Any QB list that has Joe Montana at #1 has my respect.

[Jules 98]

I don't think current players and retired players should be mixed on a list right now anyway.

 

You don't know what could change in a current QBs career before he retires.....it's not over.

[DavethePanther 37]

He's up there because he has been about the clutchest QB outside of Montana (and Ben) in history. He got his teams to three Super Bowls, but lost because he didn't have a defense until the end of his career. His stats aren't great, but he did what it took to win and he did have some nice seasons at the end of his career when Shanahan got him playing within a decent system.

 

Conversely, Unitas had a stifling defense in Baltimore that was often in the top 3, and always in the top 10. Unitas was, outside of his "The Greatest Game Ever Played" comeback, as unclutch as they come.

 

Unitas is about the most overrated QB ever, next to Marino and Peyton. I feel that I was generous in only notching 5 of his playoff performances as "poor". He played 9 career playoff games and in 5 of those he was abysmal. In his lone Super Bowl win he was 3-9, 88 yards, 1 TD, 2 INT. I am of the school of thought that pre-Super Bowl "Championships" are to be taken with a healthy dose of salt, being that all a team had to do was win one playoff game in a 12 team league. Unitas was worse than Peyton in the playoffs, and that's pretty damned hard to do. Unitas was a regular season chucker in the mold of Peyton, Marino, Moon, and to a lesser extent Favre.

 

 

 

What a crock of garbage that is. Unitas was the originator of the 2 minute offense. Obviously you never saw him play. Clearly talking out your ass.

 

I find it funny that Brees is #3 with 1 Super Bowl victory and being in that game was because the poor officiating in the NFC Title game.

 

Whatever dude.

[Jules 98]

What a crock of garbage that is. Unitas was the originator of the 2 minute offense. Obviously you never saw him play. Clearly talking out your ass.

 

I find it funny that Brees is #3 with 1 Super Bowl victory and being in that game was because the poor officiating in the NFC Title game.

 

Whatever dude.

 

I feel as if Unitas is getting more and more underrated as time goes on. My father is in his 60's and was a Baltimore Colts fan actually. He always has told me Unitas is the best he ever saw play the game.

[theMileHighGuy 656]

Very nice list, I agree with it for the most part.

 

I think Marino is too low, if you were to rank with considerations on their situations. If you put him on Montana's 9ers, he would probably have the rings too. From a pure ability standpoint, he's in my top-5.

[Jules 98]

Eli Manning is the luckiest mofo in the playoffs. For real. A miracle helmet catch vs. the Pats and he is some sort of postseason legend now when in reality the Giants ride their defense in any postseason they are in anyway.

 

I was honestly more impressed by Flacco and his postseason run last year then I was in either of Eli's SB runs. Seriously. Flacco was tearing shit up for 4 games straight luck or not IMO this guy is underrated at times. And the Ravens D IMO was pretty overrated at times last year and was living on reputation.

 

And Flacco teams make the playoffs EVERY SEASON.

 

I have no idea why I am talking about Flacco. Shit. I am such a closet Flacco fan.

Edited July 9, 2013 by Jules

[theMileHighGuy 656]

Eli Manning is the luckiest mofo in the playoffs. For real. A miracle helmet catch vs. the Pats and he is some sort of postseason legend now when in reality the Giants ride their defense in any postseason they are in anyway.

 

I was honestly more impressed by Flacco and his postseason run last year then I was in either of Eli's SB runs. Seriously. Flacco was tearing shit up for 4 games straight. And the Ravens D IMO was pretty overrated at times last year and was living on reputation.

 

And Flacco teams make the playoffs EVERY SEASON.

 

 

You could argue he was two miracle catches from being 0-2 in superbowls. I respect Eli, he does turn it on at times. I don't think Flacco is better than he is though. I don't think they get through the playoffs without Boldin playing out of his skin (or a little ref help...)

 

Eli just has too many headscratcher games as well to be rated higher than some of the guys he's above.

[Jules 98]

You could argue he was two miracle catches from being 0-2 in superbowls. I respect Eli, he does turn it on at times. I don't think Flacco is better than he is though. I don't think they get through the playoffs without Boldin playing out of his skin (or a little ref help...)

 

Eli just has too many headscratcher games as well to be rated higher than some of the guys he's above.

 

The Giants need to make the playoffs more consistently for me. I know we all want the big postseason moments. Hell I do too, as a Colts fan we have sometimes been starved of them.

 

But, you still have to get there.....

 

It says something to me as well if a QB can consistently help his team get to the postseason every single year.

[Jules 98]

You could argue he was two miracle catches from being 0-2 in superbowls. I respect Eli, he does turn it on at times. I don't think Flacco is better than he is though. I don't think they get through the playoffs without Boldin playing out of his skin (or a little ref help...)

 

Eli just has too many headscratcher games as well to be rated higher than some of the guys he's above.

 

That goes with the game though. The refs. You have to overcome it but sometimes yes it IS blatant. Look at the Steelers in 2005 too....

 

Oh and people might forget but way back in 2001 a team with a nobody 6th round draft pick in his second year called Tom Brady got the benefit of one of the biggest BS calls of all the time when the refs called the Tuck Rule vs. the Oakland Raiders. They don't call that then the Pats don't win the game and likely no dynasty and Joe Montana 2.0 is not in development.

Edited July 9, 2013 by Jules

[Phins4life 271]

What a crock of garbage that is. Unitas was the originator of the 2 minute offense. Obviously you never saw him play. Clearly talking out your ass.

 

Angry much? Respect goes a long way on these boards. Try to show some.

 

I find it funny that Brees is #3 with 1 Super Bowl victory and being in that game was because the poor officiating in the NFC Title game.

 

 

There were indeed some questionable calls in that game, not least of all the Pierre Thomas TD that should have been ruled down shy of the EZ. But that's Childress' fault for not challenging...it isn't like he didn't have the chance to. Besides, Peterson neutralized that score with one of his own on the very next drive.

 

In all actuality, the Saints making the SB has more to do with the 10,000 things the Vikings did to lose the game than bad officiating. Just a quick glance at the ball control numbers tells you nearly everything you need to know. It shouldn't have been close. Between the lucky breaks that didn't get cashed in (including a RZ fumble following a muffed punt recovery), horrible overthrows, blown advantages, and late game turnovers (including Favre's classic across-the-body interception a la 2007 NFCCG against NY), the only people to blame for the Vikings not making it that year are the Vikings.

 

But that in no way minimizes how Brees played. He did what he could with what that stingy Vikings defense gave him, and he did it very well. Most importantly, he didn't cost his team the game with bad decisions. Favre cannot say the same thing.

 

Whatever dude.

 

Precisely. Try again next time.

[Zack_of_Steel+ 3,014]

What a crock of garbage that is. Unitas was the originator of the 2 minute offense. Obviously you never saw him play. Clearly talking out your ass.

 

I find it funny that Brees is #3 with 1 Super Bowl victory and being in that game was because the poor officiating in the NFC Title game.

 

Whatever dude.

 

What profound and valuable insight. You completely eviscerated my argument, and without sounding like a miserly old man who insists his opinion is correct simply because he's the elder in the conversation. Bravo.

 

I feel as if Unitas is getting more and more underrated as time goes on. My father is in his 60's and was a Baltimore Colts fan actually. He always has told me Unitas is the best he ever saw play the game.

 

See, this is why I liked SteVo's post.

 

Any QB list that has Joe Montana at #1 has my respect.

 

To me, this is insightful. The only QB that really matters on a list is #1, because that immediately lets you know whether or not to continue on or to cast the list off because if they can't get the first one right, why bother with the rest of the list?

 

Your father's list is no longer one I'd consider reading.

 

 

Very nice list, I agree with it for the most part.

 

I think Marino is too low, if you were to rank with considerations on their situations. If you put him on Montana's 9ers, he would probably have the rings too. From a pure ability standpoint, he's in my top-5.

 

Well, Marino didn't really have a ton of weapons outside of Irving Fryar for a year and their rushing ranking was mediocre at best, but that's more indicative of how much they threw the ball. However, he did have some nice defenses to work for him. In the 10 seasons he made it to the playoffs, he had a top 10 defense in 5 of them. The reason he's low is that he didn't perform in the playoffs. Out of his 10 losses, he had a good game in only the 1994 game against the Chargers.

 

 

He threw multiple interceptions in every loss, had a poor completion percentage, and his YPA dropped drastically, save for the 1983 game.

 

That goes with the game though. The refs. You have to overcome it but sometimes yes it IS blatant. Look at the Steelers in 2005 too....

 

It's hilarious that people still incessantly insist that the Steelers were favored by the refs in that game. I could do a long write-up, but instead someone made a page about it with pictures and such.

 

http://checkraise.com/rants2/archive3/xl.html

 

The most brought up call of offensive pass interference:

 

 

Clearly Hope is pushed backward.

 

Furthermore, are you really going to complain about XL when in the game prior Polamalu intercepted your guy Peyton and the refs ruled it an incomplete pass despite the fact that he clearly took two steps, dived, rolled with it and kneed it out of his own arm as he was getting to his feet. The NFL outright stated that it was the incorrect call after the game. They did not do the same following XL.

Edited July 9, 2013 by Zack_of_Steel

[RazorStar 4,025]

Not sure why I got negged from the Colts fan... wasn't even dissing Unitas.

[Bay 2,003]

Well, Marino didn't really have a ton of weapons outside of Irving Fryar for a year and their rushing ranking was mediocre at best, but that's more indicative of how much they threw the ball. However, he did have some nice defenses to work for him. In the 10 seasons he made it to the playoffs, he had a top 10 defense in 5 of them. The reason he's low is that he didn't perform in the playoffs. Out of his 10 losses, he had a good game in only the 1994 game against the Chargers.

 

The Marks brothers were a pretty damn good duo at WR for a decade until Mark Clayton was replaced by Irving Fryar for the 1993 season. You're right the Dolphins running game during Marino's tenure was always pretty shitty.

 

Edit: lulz then in '93 they got another Mark at receiver.

 

 

 

Edited July 9, 2013 by Bay