SEC Sack Leader Michael Sam Could Be NFL's First Openly Gay Player

[DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241]

I'd go as far as saying he was one of, if not, the least explosive Dlinemen at the combine.

[ATL_Predator+ 1,196]

Because 40 yard dash times are a great indication of game speed.. It's pretty common that pass rushers run 40 yards in a straight line before sacking the QB, right?

 

Have you watched Michael Sam at all while he was at Mizzou? Just curious.

[blotsfan 2,112]

I did, and he did get shut down somewhat when teams started focusing on him more. He stopped getting sacks but still had a disruptive presence (teams focusing on him is what lead to Kony Ealy being thought of as a first rounder IMO). I think he can be a guy who gets a few sacks and plays pretty well against the run, but will not succeed if he's supposed to be your top d-lineman. Not an early pick, but someone that can be an asset to a team.

[Zack_of_Steel+ 3,014]

Are we seriously wondering how vertical jump equates to explosion? Vertical jump uses the abdominal, gluteus maximus, quadriceps, and calf muscles, all of which are highly important in explosion off the line.

 

You don't have to be Socal to figure this shit out, lmao.

Edited February 28, 2014 by Zack_of_Steel

[Favre4Ever+ 4,476]

My complaint wasn't from a fitness perspective. Instead, give me a list of NFL players correlating vertical jump to pass rushing success. That would prove me wrong.

 

 

EDIT

I put a lot more stock into the shuttle and cone drills, which will show you more of the finesse side of pass rushing for guys like Sam who aren't very strong or fast. Granted, he also sucked major ass in those drills, so.. The point may be moot.

Edited February 28, 2014 by Favre4Ever

[Bucman 891]

Because 40 yard dash times are a great indication of game speed.. It's pretty common that pass rushers run 40 yards in a straight line before sacking the QB, right?

The 40 yards may not be important. But the 10 yard split is.

[Zack_of_Steel+ 3,014]

Vertical jump = lack of explosion off the line of scrimmage?

 

I am no pro scout, but I don't exactly get the connection.

 

Are we seriously wondering how vertical jump equates to explosion? Vertical jump uses the abdominal, gluteus maximus, quadriceps, and calf muscles, all of which are highly important in explosion off the line.

 

You don't have to be Socal to figure this shit out, lmao.

 

My complaint wasn't from a fitness perspective. Instead, give me a list of NFL players correlating vertical jump to pass rushing success. That would prove me wrong.

 

 

EDIT

I put a lot more stock into the shuttle and cone drills, which will show you more of the finesse side of pass rushing for guys like Sam who aren't very strong or fast. Granted, he also sucked major ass in those drills, so.. The point may be moot.

It is a fact that the vertical jump requires the use of the muscles I listed. It is a fact that vertical jump is a measure of power output (explosion). It is a fact that exploding off the line requires those same muscles and a large power output.

 

Also, since when is football purely about rushing the passer? Explosion off the line matters on every down in order to hold the point of attack, create better leverage in moving your opponent, et cetera.

 

There's nothing to argue here. You asked a question, I gave you the answer. Instead of accepting the answer, now you are expecting me to run off on a fool's errand that has little to do with your original question. Please.

[BJORN 679]

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/combine/2014/ALL/DE

 

 

Favre, feel free to look for a successful/notable pass rusher with a vertical jump under 30. I couldn't find one just skimming over DE and OLB since 2002.

Edited February 28, 2014 by BJORN

[Favre4Ever+ 4,476]

 

Vertical jump = lack of explosion off the line of scrimmage?

 

I am no pro scout, but I don't exactly get the connection.

 

Are we seriously wondering how vertical jump equates to explosion? Vertical jump uses the abdominal, gluteus maximus, quadriceps, and calf muscles, all of which are highly important in explosion off the line.

 

You don't have to be Socal to figure this shit out, lmao.

 

My complaint wasn't from a fitness perspective. Instead, give me a list of NFL players correlating vertical jump to pass rushing success. That would prove me wrong.

 

 

EDIT

I put a lot more stock into the shuttle and cone drills, which will show you more of the finesse side of pass rushing for guys like Sam who aren't very strong or fast. Granted, he also sucked major ass in those drills, so.. The point may be moot.

It is a fact that the vertical jump requires the use of the muscles I listed. It is a fact that vertical jump is a measure of power output (explosion). It is a fact that exploding off the line requires those same muscles and a large power output.

 

Also, since when is football purely about rushing the passer? Explosion off the line matters on every down in order to hold the point of attack, create better leverage in moving your opponent, et cetera.

 

There's nothing to argue here. You asked a question, I gave you the answer. Instead of accepting the answer, now you are expecting me to run off on a fool's errand that has little to do with your original question. Please.

 

 

You are right, there is nothing to argue. From your own mouth

 

"requires a large power output"

 

Michael Sam is not a power or strength rusher. It's irrelevant to his assessment as a guy who MIGHT get on a roster as a one trick pony. A finesse / agile pass rusher.

[Favre4Ever+ 4,476]

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/combine/2014/ALL/DE

 

 

Favre, feel free to look for a successful/notable pass rusher with a vertical jump under 30. I couldn't find one just skimming over DE and OLB since 2002.

List looks really incomplete... but

 

Tyson Jackson

Robert Ayers

Calais Campbell

Kendall Langford

 

Stand out to me. Ayers and Langford aren't all stars or world beaters by any means, but they serve a nominal purpose on an NFL roster relative to the number of people coming or trying to come into the league.

 

Much less... It looks like the ratio of successful pass rushers in sub 30 verticals is much higher / better than those with verticals over 30 inches. While there is a great deal fewer sub 30 verts, there is a higher percentage of success among them.

 

Granted, you also have to figure that a lot of sub 30 guys probably don't want to jump. But I can only work with the data I have been given.

 

The all-star super epic pass rushers do seem to lean more 30+, but there are so many failures in the same range that it doesn't lend itself to any sort of true connection.

 

So... Proven by you, Bjorn.. There is no consistent correlation between vertical jump and success as a pass rusher.

 

Combine practically worthless... Confirmed.

Edited February 28, 2014 by Favre4Ever

[Bucman 891]

 

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/combine/2014/ALL/DE

 

 

Favre, feel free to look for a successful/notable pass rusher with a vertical jump under 30. I couldn't find one just skimming over DE and OLB since 2002.

List looks really incomplete... but

 

Tyson Jackson

Robert Ayers

Calais Campbell

Kendall Langford

 

Stand out to me. Ayers and Langford aren't all stars or world beaters by any means, but they serve a nominal purpose on an NFL roster relative to the number of people coming or trying to come into the league.

 

Much less... It looks like the ratio of successful pass rushers in sub 30 verticals is much higher / better than those with verticals over 30 inches. While there is a great deal fewer sub 30 verts, there is a higher percentage of success among them.

 

Granted, you also have to figure that a lot of sub 30 guys probably don't want to jump. But I can only work with the data I have been given.

 

The all-star super epic pass rushers do seem to lean more 30+, but there are so many failures in the same range that it doesn't lend itself to any sort of true connection.

 

So... Proven by you, Bjorn.. There is no consistent correlation between vertical jump and success as a pass rusher.

 

Combine practically worthless... Confirmed.

 

Tyson Jackson is a pass rusher? He has never had more than 4 sacks in a year. He is a run stuffing DE. Actually none of those guys besides Campbell have been that successful.

[BLUE 1,026]

 

Vertical jump = lack of explosion off the line of scrimmage?

 

I am no pro scout, but I don't exactly get the connection.

 

Are we seriously wondering how vertical jump equates to explosion? Vertical jump uses the abdominal, gluteus maximus, quadriceps, and calf muscles, all of which are highly important in explosion off the line.

 

You don't have to be Socal to figure this shit out, lmao.

 

My complaint wasn't from a fitness perspective. Instead, give me a list of NFL players correlating vertical jump to pass rushing success. That would prove me wrong.

 

 

EDIT

I put a lot more stock into the shuttle and cone drills, which will show you more of the finesse side of pass rushing for guys like Sam who aren't very strong or fast. Granted, he also sucked major ass in those drills, so.. The point may be moot.

It is a fact that the vertical jump requires the use of the muscles I listed. It is a fact that vertical jump is a measure of power output (explosion). It is a fact that exploding off the line requires those same muscles and a large power output.

 

Also, since when is football purely about rushing the passer? Explosion off the line matters on every down in order to hold the point of attack, create better leverage in moving your opponent, et cetera.

 

There's nothing to argue here. You asked a question, I gave you the answer. Instead of accepting the answer, now you are expecting me to run off on a fool's errand that has little to do with your original question. Please.

 

 

I negged this by accident, lol. My bad. I'll rep your other post ITT. >_>

Edited March 1, 2014 by BLUE

[Vin+ 3,121]

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/combine/2014/ALL/DE

 

 

Favre, feel free to look for a successful/notable pass rusher with a vertical jump under 30. I couldn't find one just skimming over DE and OLB since 2002.

DEs:

 

Kevin Williams was right at 30.

Tommy Kelly did a 25 at 6'6" 294,

Langford did a 26 at 6'6" 287, but he only had 12.5 sacks since 08. Solid player, but not a pass rusher.

Calais Campbell is probably the best example. 29 1/2 at 6'8" 290.

Tyson Jackson and Robert Ayers only have 7 and 12 sacks respectively since 09

Pernell McPhee might be what Sam is gonna be. 6'3" 278, 28 1/2" vert, 9.5 sacks since '11.

 

All of these guys except Ayers and McPhee were either giants or pushing 300 lbs.

 

OLBs:

 

Larry Foote was right at 30, but he's not a really a pass rusher.

Navorro Bowman posted a 29 1/2", but is he a pass rusher? Only 9.5 sacks since '10.

 

 

A successful sub-30" vert. OLB does not exist, at least according to the numbers that have been compiled.

 

 

 

[BJORN 679]

 

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/combine/2014/ALL/DE

 

 

Favre, feel free to look for a successful/notable pass rusher with a vertical jump under 30. I couldn't find one just skimming over DE and OLB since 2002.

List looks really incomplete... but

 

Tyson Jackson

Robert Ayers

Calais Campbell

Kendall Langford

 

Stand out to me. Ayers and Langford aren't all stars or world beaters by any means, but they serve a nominal purpose on an NFL roster relative to the number of people coming or trying to come into the league.

 

Much less... It looks like the ratio of successful pass rushers in sub 30 verticals is much higher / better than those with verticals over 30 inches. While there is a great deal fewer sub 30 verts, there is a higher percentage of success among them.

 

Granted, you also have to figure that a lot of sub 30 guys probably don't want to jump. But I can only work with the data I have been given.

 

The all-star super epic pass rushers do seem to lean more 30+, but there are so many failures in the same range that it doesn't lend itself to any sort of true connection.

 

So... Proven by you, Bjorn.. There is no consistent correlation between vertical jump and success as a pass rusher.

 

Combine practically worthless... Confirmed.

 

Calais Cambell is a 3-4 DE. And not everyone participated in the combine that's why it seems incomplete. I don't feel like checking individual pro day records lol

Edited March 1, 2014 by BJORN

[Favre4Ever+ 4,476]

 

 

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/combine/2014/ALL/DE

 

 

Favre, feel free to look for a successful/notable pass rusher with a vertical jump under 30. I couldn't find one just skimming over DE and OLB since 2002.

List looks really incomplete... but

 

Tyson Jackson

Robert Ayers

Calais Campbell

Kendall Langford

 

Stand out to me. Ayers and Langford aren't all stars or world beaters by any means, but they serve a nominal purpose on an NFL roster relative to the number of people coming or trying to come into the league.

 

Much less... It looks like the ratio of successful pass rushers in sub 30 verticals is much higher / better than those with verticals over 30 inches. While there is a great deal fewer sub 30 verts, there is a higher percentage of success among them.

 

Granted, you also have to figure that a lot of sub 30 guys probably don't want to jump. But I can only work with the data I have been given.

 

The all-star super epic pass rushers do seem to lean more 30+, but there are so many failures in the same range that it doesn't lend itself to any sort of true connection.

 

So... Proven by you, Bjorn.. There is no consistent correlation between vertical jump and success as a pass rusher.

 

Combine practically worthless... Confirmed.

 

Tyson Jackson is a pass rusher? He has never had more than 4 sacks in a year. He is a run stuffing DE. Actually none of those guys besides Campbell have been that successful.

 

The list of players Sub 30 verts given to me by Bjorn is VERY limited. Thus I took the names that have seen some nominal success in the league, and not just the pass rushers. Hence, Tyson Jackson inclusion.

 

Compared to the 150+ players who never do anything at all? Absolutely they've have been 'successful'. You have to realize, looking at a list of combine players... a huge majority of them won't make NFL teams, won't ever make a career start... Won't ever get a career sack. If you count success with Pro Bowls, Super Bowls, etc.. That's fine. But we aren't even comparing all NFL players. We are comparing a lot of guys who never make it AT ALL... Much less do ANYTHING.

 

Comparing Langford and Ayers to guys who never even made a team (which is what the comebine is), they are more successful. They've had roles to play . I could give you a list of all the names on Bjorn's list with 30+ verts and no career sacks, my guess is you not only haven't heard of them, but you never will.

 

Zack was absolutely right with his this and that muscle post, and admittedly (and obviously) I was ignorant on such a topic... But it doesn't change the fact that these tests a ssingle units of measurement have very little correlation to NFL success in any manor.

 

I agree with your post earlier about the splits being "more" important. My original point wasn't defending Michael Sam or his poor showing at the combine in nearly every single drill he did. My point was combine success doesn't directly drive success at the NFL level. There is no correlation at all.

 

You have beasts at the combine who both fail and have tremendous success in the NFL. You have underachievers in the combine who bot fail and have tremendous success in the NFL.

 

There is nothing a vertical jump, 40 yard dash, 10 yard split, cone drill, etc tells me about an NFL player that I can't see on tape or in actually football drills. None.

 

Unless you want to count the interview process, which is invaluable.

Edited March 1, 2014 by Favre4Ever

[Vin+ 3,121]

 

NFL.com's Bucky Brooks sees Missouri DE Michael Sam as a fifth-round prospect.

After a disappointing Combine that saw Sam run a 4.91 and post a 25.5 inch vertical at an undersized 6'2/261, Brooks calls him a mere nickel pass rusher. "He's not athletic enough to be that 3-4 outside linebacker and he's not stout enough to be an every down defensive end," Brooks said. "So, you would need to have a role for him." Sam needs to test better at Missouri's March 20 Pro Day to raise his draft stock.

Source: Atlanta Journal-Constitution

[CampinWithaMissingPerson 2,025]

That's what I always had him at basically. Day 3 in my area. I actually made a thread calling him this year's Jarvis Jones in terms of being way overrated because of his SEC sack numbers. Unlike Jones however, it seems like people are pretty much on board with him not being a top prospect.

[Bucman 891]

Once Sam falls to round 7 because of his dogshit combine, all the gays will be complaining its because he is queer.

[blotsfan 2,112]

Michael Sam had a huge improvement in his 40 time at the pro day.

 

http://www.kansascity.com/2014/03/20/4904035/sam-has-better-showing-at-missouris.html

 

 

Edit: And before anyone calls me too biased towards Sam, I could be a lot worse.

Edited March 21, 2014 by blotsfan

[Favre4Ever+ 4,476]

He improved nearly everything. Should be interesting to see how scouts / teams take this.

 

Also, to be fair to Hoge.,... Clowney would be off my board completely in most cases, so there are a lot of players I would take before him. Not sure if that's what he meant, but I understand it form that angle. lol

Edited March 21, 2014 by Favre4Ever

[CampinWithaMissingPerson 2,025]

 

0:37

 

[Bucman 891]

McShay was even worse

[Favre4Ever+ 4,476]

What a joke Brian Brohm was... LMAO. He did have some talent, but man.... He was a mental midget if I ever saw one.

[BLUE 1,026]

It looks like someone at ESPN running the First Take Twitter account just fucked up:

 

https://twitter.com/merrilhoge/status/447053921811701761

 

https://twitter.com/merrilhoge/status/447054832088932352

 

https://twitter.com/merrilhoge/status/447060864760561664

Edited March 22, 2014 by BLUE

[Wannabe scout 33]

I find it interesting that Ealy is supposed to be the better athletic prospect and is being ranked as a 1st round pick but a lesser athlete on his own team that is rated as a 6th round pick outperformed him. Ealy's motor is a huge question mark and probably is going to bite the team how drafts him in the first round. Id take a lesser athlete who is a 100% effort guy over a big time athlete