Russia and Crimea

[OSUViking 505]

Russia is no longer on our level, so I don't think "Cold War II" is an apt prediction. I don't think this could escalate to a World War either. Russia is largely on their own here. China has no interest in stepping on our toes and North Korea is a small dog--all bark, no bite.

 

Yet this is right off the border of Russia. Let's not pretend like a war with Russia would be a walk in the park - it would be disastrously expensive and costly (in terms of lives lost).

[Guest Phailadelphia]

Of course. But again, they don't want that. We don't wan that. Europe doesn't want that. We have a lot in common here.

[OSUViking 505]

Of course. But again, they don't want that. We don't wan that. Europe doesn't want that. We have a lot in common here.

 

Yet we've made no move to establish our own leverage. There are very few things we can do that would force Russia to back down. Again, under the current circumstances, the only thing that will make them withdraw are Putin's orders.

[southgadawg 52]

I think one thing that is overlooked here in talking about Russia and also talking about North Korea....they may not have all the military might that they pretend they have BUT they have leaders in place (especially NK I think their leader is really out of touch with the world) that appear so confident in their abilities to make decisions that they might make a bad one that touches off a major conflict. Leaders are human and more than one has been known through history to make huge mistakes that cost them and their countries dearly.

 

I will readily admit that I am not very up to date on our own countries military capabilities but unfortunately I have been in enough fights in my own life that I realize it doesn't take two people to start a fight. It only takes one who believes he can win. I sincerely hope that Putin doesn't think it is in Russia's best interest to start a war because surely many will suffer.

[OSUViking 505]

He knows it isn't good for Russia to be at war. However, right now Putin is in the driver's seat.

[Bucman 891]

China is not going to let North Korea do shit.

[Thanatos 2,847]

 

Why are we concerned with Russia taking over Crimea?

 

I am not willing to bluff, if that's what you guys are saying, and send troops to the border of Russia.

 

What if Putin calls the bluff and engages? I don't know if the US wins a war with Russia at this time. Russia is one hell of a military power and this would be fought on their doorstep. Are we willing to take that risk over Crimea?

 

 

No. No one outside of Russia cares about Crimea, really, because Russia has a base there that allows them to think their Black Sea Fleet is significant. The problem here is that Russia has made it clear that it will move into Eastern Ukraine if it sees it fit. NATO has a lot of concentration in the area with Poland, Turkey, Romania, etc. They aren't necessarily huge powers, but they provide enough logistical ease that it would allow NATO to engage in Ukraine. Russia can't afford this war - literally - either.

 

 

Again. Why do we care if they go into Ukraine?

 

We have a United Nations. Either utilize it and go after them via sanctions, or disband it. If we just ignore it whenever we want to or feel like it, its worthless anyway.

 

Here's the thing. Putin is a cold-blooded sob. If he thinks he can call a bluff from the US if we station troops there, what do you do if he attacks and most likely defeats the battalion of troops you've sent over there? You now have little choice but either completely backing off and seeming weak by NOW resorting to economic sanctions, or you engage in a full scale war with Russia, which would be completely insane to do.

 

Military mobilization is not the answer and it is not worth the risk.

Edited March 3, 2014 by Thanatos19

[OSUViking 505]

 

Again. Why do we care if they go into Ukraine?

 

Geopolitics. It's really that simple. The Ukraine has become a major player in Eastern Europe for both sides since it's the only "neutral" nation left. It'd be a devastating blow for Russia to lose the Ukraine to the EU or NATO, and it'd be a major win for the other side.

 

 

 

We have a United Nations. Either utilize it and go after them via sanctions, or disband it. If we just ignore it whenever we want to or feel like it, its worthless anyway.

 

Russia is on the Security Council, lol. Unless they decide to boycott it, we aren't going to get shit through with their veto power.

 

Here's the thing. Putin is a cold-blooded sob. If he thinks he can call a bluff from the US if we station troops there, what do you do if he attacks and most likely defeats the battalion of troops you've sent over there? You now have little choice but either completely backing off and seeming weak by NOW resorting to economic sanctions, or you engage in a full scale war with Russia, which would be completely insane to do.

You think he is going to attack NATO troops? It's highly, highly unlikely that he will do that IF NATO decides to mobilize. Again, Russia can't afford this war. It would expend most of its resources invading and occupying Ukraine. It would be a tough war between NATO and Russia, but it's not a war that either side wants to fight.

 

Military mobilization is not the answer and it is not worth the risk.

Not to sound rude, but what is the answer, then? Diplomatic pressure clearly is not working. Does Putin even care about the G8? I don't think so. Phail's idea of freezing the assets of Russian leaders would be effective, but so too would cutting off natural gas to Europe. They've lost some leverage with that sine we are heading into Spring, but the threat still remains. For the time being, Europe is still mostly dependent on Russian natural gas.

There is no easy solution to this problem. I happen to believe that if Russia begins to move into Eastern Ukraine, military mobilization is the best solution to tell Russia to back off. I can understand reservations to this idea, but to outright take mobilization off the table is absurd when we are dealing with the biggest global flashpoint in decades.

By the way, I should emphasize that I don't advocate mobilization under the current circumstances. If I haven't made that much clear, I apologize. I only advocate escalation in the event of continued Russian incursion into Ukraine.

[southgadawg 52]

TBH I seriously doubt that Russia will proceed to the rest of the Ukraine but I believe they will now keep Crimea simply because no one has leverage to make them give it back. I don't think anyone really wants bloodshed but I am worried that with the troops in close proximity to each other tragic mistakes might happen.

[OSUViking 505]

TBH I seriously doubt that Russia will proceed to the rest of the Ukraine...

 

They have 150,000 soldiers in addition to (as far as I know) an unspecified amount of aircraft and armor on the Ukrainian border for "exercises". Putin has said that Russia will move into Eastern Ukraine if they set it fit. It's a very real possibility.

 

However, the Ukrainian military holdouts in Crimea are standing strong. If there aren't any shots fired in Crimea, the situation might be able to dissolve somewhat. I don't think the international community would accept a Russian annexation of Crimea, however.

[Guest Phailadelphia]

Russian stock market is taking a hammering. And the Russian central bank is spending tens of billions to prop up its currency. And no one has even sanctioned them yet. I'm tellng y'all, Russia has no interest in war. I bet they'd be bankrupt and defaulting inside of a month.

[OSUViking 505]

Russian stock market is taking a hammering. And the Russian central bank is spending tens of billions to prop up its currency. And no one has even sanctioned them yet. I'm tellng y'all, Russia has no interest in war. I bet they'd be bankrupt and defaulting inside of a month.

 

Which is part of the reason why I think playing their game would be the best option if they decide to take this further. If they just remain in Crimea and decide to protect their economy, then the inaction was good. I don't advocate action just because of Crimea. But if they move further into the Ukraine, they likely won't back down just because of their economy.

[Thanatos 2,847]

 

 

Again. Why do we care if they go into Ukraine?

 

Geopolitics. It's really that simple. The Ukraine has become a major player in Eastern Europe for both sides since it's the only "neutral" nation left. It'd be a devastating blow for Russia to lose the Ukraine to the EU or NATO, and it'd be a major win for the other side.

 

 

 

We have a United Nations. Either utilize it and go after them via sanctions, or disband it. If we just ignore it whenever we want to or feel like it, its worthless anyway.

 

Russia is on the Security Council, lol. Unless they decide to boycott it, we aren't going to get shit through with their veto power.

 

 

 

Here's the thing. Putin is a cold-blooded sob. If he thinks he can call a bluff from the US if we station troops there, what do you do if he attacks and most likely defeats the battalion of troops you've sent over there? You now have little choice but either completely backing off and seeming weak by NOW resorting to economic sanctions, or you engage in a full scale war with Russia, which would be completely insane to do.

 

You think he is going to attack NATO troops? It's highly, highly unlikely that he will do that IF NATO decides to mobilize. Again, Russia can't afford this war. It would expend most of its resources invading and occupying Ukraine. It would be a tough war between NATO and Russia, but it's not a war that either side wants to fight.

 

 

 

Military mobilization is not the answer and it is not worth the risk.

 

Not to sound rude, but what is the answer, then? Diplomatic pressure clearly is not working. Does Putin even care about the G8? I don't think so. Phail's idea of freezing the assets of Russian leaders would be effective, but so too would cutting off natural gas to Europe. They've lost some leverage with that sine we are heading into Spring, but the threat still remains. For the time being, Europe is still mostly dependent on Russian natural gas.

 

There is no easy solution to this problem. I happen to believe that if Russia begins to move into Eastern Ukraine, military mobilization is the best solution to tell Russia to back off. I can understand reservations to this idea, but to outright take mobilization off the table is absurd when we are dealing with the biggest global flashpoint in decades.

 

By the way, I should emphasize that I don't advocate mobilization under the current circumstances. If I haven't made that much clear, I apologize. I only advocate escalation in the event of continued Russian incursion into Ukraine.

 

 

I simply don't see why it is in the US interests to prevent Russia from taking over Ukraine, if it comes to that. Perhaps I'm too much of an isolationist, but its simply not our business. Entangling alliances and all that. We've spilled enough blood protecting other people's interests this century.

 

I don't have a clue WHAT Putin is going to do. And that's what is scary. Sure, I think it'd be stupid for him to attack NATO troops. The question is, does Putin think it would be stupid for Putin to attack NATO troops? I have no idea and I dont think anyone does except Putin.

Edited March 3, 2014 by Thanatos19

[Sarge+ 3,436]

We could end this all by dropping the new Bucs jerseys on Russia. There's no way they could stand up to that kind of horror.

[housemd 338]

 

 

 

Again. Why do we care if they go into Ukraine?

 

Geopolitics. It's really that simple. The Ukraine has become a major player in Eastern Europe for both sides since it's the only "neutral" nation left. It'd be a devastating blow for Russia to lose the Ukraine to the EU or NATO, and it'd be a major win for the other side.

 

 

 

We have a United Nations. Either utilize it and go after them via sanctions, or disband it. If we just ignore it whenever we want to or feel like it, its worthless anyway.

 

Russia is on the Security Council, lol. Unless they decide to boycott it, we aren't going to get shit through with their veto power.

 

 

 

Here's the thing. Putin is a cold-blooded sob. If he thinks he can call a bluff from the US if we station troops there, what do you do if he attacks and most likely defeats the battalion of troops you've sent over there? You now have little choice but either completely backing off and seeming weak by NOW resorting to economic sanctions, or you engage in a full scale war with Russia, which would be completely insane to do.

 

You think he is going to attack NATO troops? It's highly, highly unlikely that he will do that IF NATO decides to mobilize. Again, Russia can't afford this war. It would expend most of its resources invading and occupying Ukraine. It would be a tough war between NATO and Russia, but it's not a war that either side wants to fight.

 

 

 

Military mobilization is not the answer and it is not worth the risk.

 

Not to sound rude, but what is the answer, then? Diplomatic pressure clearly is not working. Does Putin even care about the G8? I don't think so. Phail's idea of freezing the assets of Russian leaders would be effective, but so too would cutting off natural gas to Europe. They've lost some leverage with that sine we are heading into Spring, but the threat still remains. For the time being, Europe is still mostly dependent on Russian natural gas.

 

There is no easy solution to this problem. I happen to believe that if Russia begins to move into Eastern Ukraine, military mobilization is the best solution to tell Russia to back off. I can understand reservations to this idea, but to outright take mobilization off the table is absurd when we are dealing with the biggest global flashpoint in decades.

 

By the way, I should emphasize that I don't advocate mobilization under the current circumstances. If I haven't made that much clear, I apologize. I only advocate escalation in the event of continued Russian incursion into Ukraine.

 

 

I simply don't see why it is in the US interests to prevent Russia from taking over Ukraine, if it comes to that. Perhaps I'm too much of an isolationist, but its simply not our business. Entangling alliances and all that. We've spilled enough blood protecting other people's interests this century.

 

I don't have a clue WHAT Putin is going to do. And that's what is scary. Sure, I think it'd be stupid for him to attack NATO troops. The question is, does Putin think it would be stupid for Putin to attack NATO troops? I have no idea and I dont think anyone does except Putin.

 

US wants to do the same thing they did with Kosovo, do an "intervention" in a country with a great geopolitical position and then after everything is done, they can build a military base. Crimea is the a perfect place for that because taking over Crimea would mean being the strongest force at the Black Sea.

 

The reason I gave you a +1 is because someone finally said that it's not your business. And it isn't. This one is between Russia and European Union and you have nothing to do there. Your intervention won't be necessary.

[OSUViking 505]

US wants to do the same thing they did with Kosovo, do an "intervention" in a country with a great geopolitical position and then after everything is done, they can build a military base. Crimea is the a perfect place for that because taking over Crimea would mean being the strongest force at the Black Sea.

 

 

Erm... the US doesn't need a naval base in Crimea. We have plenty of military bases in the Mediterranean, and really the Black Sea holds no significant to us when one of our NATO allies controls the entrance and exit to it.

[Omerta+ 1,206]

Anybody who thinks military mobilization is a good idea it is probably because they wont bare the brunt of the decision. This is none of our business... Period.

[OSUViking 505]

Anybody who thinks military mobilization is a good idea it is probably because they wont bare the brunt of the decision. This is none of our business... Period.

 

So instead of actually addressing why you think military mobilization is not the best solution if Russia continues to escalate the situation, you accuse me of being a coward? I can accept the fact that I am not a general and likely would not feel the heavy repercussions, but you should also accept that these views are simply my opinions. I'm not pretending to know what is best for the country or the situation; rather, I'm stating what I think is best for the country and/or situation. You can imply that I am a coward or that I will not feel the aftershock of what I believe is right all you want, but I don't really care. I stand by my opinion.

Edited March 4, 2014 by OSUViking

[housemd 338]

 

US wants to do the same thing they did with Kosovo, do an "intervention" in a country with a great geopolitical position and then after everything is done, they can build a military base. Crimea is the a perfect place for that because taking over Crimea would mean being the strongest force at the Black Sea.

 

 

Erm... the US doesn't need a naval base in Crimea. We have plenty of military bases in the Mediterranean, and really the Black Sea holds no significant to us when one of our NATO allies controls the entrance and exit to it.

 

A naval base in Crimea would be more important than all the military bases you have in Mediterranean and building one there would result in Russia's navy completely disappearing from the Black Sea. I know that Turkey controls the Bosphorus but Turkey's navy isn't even half the force Russia's is.

[Omerta+ 1,206]

You're cute when you're mad. If your done with your whiny ass tantrum maybe you will see I called nobody a coward did I ? You can take your implications and wild ass inferences and save them for someone who actually called you a coward.

[OSUViking 505]

A naval base in Crimea would be more important than all the military bases you have in Mediterranean and building one there would result in Russia's navy completely disappearing from the Black Sea. I know that Turkey controls the Bosphorus but Turkey's navy isn't even half the force Russia's is.

 

 

 

The Black Sea Fleet is not much compared to USfleets, and we're also comparing a navy to a landmass. If Turkey wants to use force to prevent Russia's ships from getting pass, they will succeed unless the Russian Army has taken control of the strait by the time the fleet arrives.

 

The United States has allies in Turkey, Romania, and Bulgaria in that region. We have no reason to actively be pushing Russia this far in such a delicate situation just because of a base, when there simply is no need for one. There is no advantage the US gets outside of a "Fuck You!" to Russia, which it will already obtain if it pushes a pro-EU Ukraine and Georgia into NATO.

 

Also, apologies, Ngata. I read your post the wrong way.

[southgadawg 52]

There has been no replies to this topic for several days but the situation in Crimea is certainly no better. The Obama administration for some reason thinks that sanctions of SEVEN people from Russia (and they didn't even sanction Putin at all) will some way punish Russia and get them to change their mind. A joke a total joke. There was even a comment from a Russian broadcaster that was to the extent of "Russia would turn the U.S. into radioactive dust". Never in my life time has America been such a non factor as it appears to be now.

 

 

[Guest Phailadelphia]

#ObamasAmerica

[Guest Phailadelphia]

Everyone for the past 8 years: CAN WE PLEASE STOP GOING TO WAR

 

Everyone for the past month: OBAMA IS WEAK AS FUCK FOR NOT GOING TO WAR WITH RUSSIA

 

I, for one, am glad we're not trying to get involved with more foreign dispute bullshit. Russia needs to chill out on Crimea and Ukraine, but I still believe that's something that can be resolved diplomatically. Fuck this strong arm rhetoric.

Edited March 18, 2014 by Phailadelphia

[BJORN 679]

Nor is it really our problem. If anything the EU should sack up and fight their own battles. In my opinion, of course.