It just keeps happening

[oochymp 2,393]

So if cops actually are allowed to get into the vehicle (as was stated in the vehicle by a cop quoting a law or w/e), then a lot of these "police brutality" things are just people being idiots with cops.

they generally need probable cause to search the vehicle, unless they're impounding the vehicle (if they're arresting the only occupant of the vehicle they can do that rather than leave it on the side of the road) and doing an inventory search (so the driver can't later say they stole shit from the car) but probable cause isn't a huge hurdle, for example smelling marijuana is enough to justify a search of the car

[OSUViking 505]

they generally need probable cause to search the vehicle, unless they're impounding the vehicle (if they're arresting the only occupant of the vehicle they can do that rather than leave it on the side of the road) and doing an inventory search (so the driver can't later say they stole shit from the car) but probable cause isn't a huge hurdle, for example smelling marijuana is enough to justify a search of the car

 

It seems like 18 U.S. Code 111 gives cops the right to use force to enact their duties if people are impeding them. Maybe I'm misinterpreting it, but it doesn't seem like cops busting in windows when people won't present license/insurance (or in the one case in the video won't comply with searches with probable cause) is illegal at this point.

 

Just seems like people are buying into cops abusing their power too much and think they're better than them.

[oochymp 2,393]

 

It seems like 18 U.S. Code 111 gives cops the right to use force to enact their duties if people are impeding them. Maybe I'm misinterpreting it, but it doesn't seem like cops busting in windows when people won't present license/insurance (or in the one case in the video won't comply with searches with probable cause) is illegal at this point.

 

Just seems like people are buying into cops abusing their power too much and think they're better than them.

yeah, definitely, I was just pointing out that in a common traffic stop police do not have the authority to search the vehicle, they need something else, most common is probable cause to suspect something illegal is going on inside the car (beyond the traffic infraction) but impeding the process is another

 

my point is, if you get pulled over the cops don't automatically have the authority to enter the vehicle, but they do have authority to ask you to identify yourself and prove that you are legally allowed to drive the car you're in on the roads, which is accomplished by asking for your license and registration

Edited August 3, 2015 by oochymp

[Cherry 1,302]

On the flip side, cops have to deal with idiots like these:

 

Is it illegal to speed?

[OSUViking 505]

Is it illegal to speed?

Is Cincinnati rioting? My friend posted a picture from his apartment and there were fires in the background.

[Cherry 1,302]

If so it hasn't been big in the media.

[Bucman 891]

Another unarmed kid killed by cops..

[oochymp 2,393]

This is coming back up with the grand jury not giving an indictment in the Tamir Rice case, I really want to vent about it and this seems like a good place to do it.

 

Before I get started I want to make a couple of my views clear: 1) this is a tragedy, anyone who doesn't admit that at the start can be completely disregarded; 2) the police should have been put on trial, a real trial not a grand jury, the standards are different for police shootings, but that shouldn't make them immune to the justice system

 

Now that those points are out of the way, a lot of the rhetoric is just absurd. I'm seeing a lot of stuff on facebook about it and one common refrain is that Tamir Rice didn't deserve to die. No shit. Nobody 'deserves' to be shot, it happens (far too often) and often it's justified, but saying I'm justified in shooting you is a far cry from saying you deserved to be shot. That's what the question was here, not whether Tamir deserved to be shot by police (again, nobody does) but whether the police were justified in deciding to shoot him. That said, the grand jury is not the place to decide that, they're just supposed to decide probable cause, not guilt, but all they said by not indicting was that the officers were justified in believing that their lives were in danger. Again, that does not mean that Tamir deserved to be shot.

 

There were a lot of issues with this case, many were with the broader police response but it seems there were also plenty of mistakes by the officers who responded, which is why it should have gone to trial. I have no idea what the result of the trial would have been, there's a good chance they would have been found not guilty, but it would have given everyone a much clearer picture of what actually happened, which is how the system is supposed to work.

[Cherry 1,302]

It's a sad situation. Now we're going to have riots again because some people can't grasp that the officers were fearing for their lives and they believed Rice had a weapon. It really stuns me how stupid some people can be about this issue. So many cries that they shot a 12-year old kid because he was black. Disgusting.

[blotsfan 2,112]

Holy shit you're an awful person.

[Cherry 1,302]

Holy shit you're an awful person.

[blotsfan 2,112]

No, thats not something to be proud of. The cops killed an innocent kid because he was holding a toy gun. They did not talk to him. They got out of the car and shot him immediately. The call to the police said that he most likely was just holding a toy gun. They are racist murderers, and I don't care how many "good cops" there are. When they all stick up for this guy, they're complicit in the murder.

[Thanatos 2,847]

@Chern: Watch this video and tell me you're okay with what happens:

 

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/video/2014/nov/26/cleveland-video-tamir-rice-shooting-police

 

@blots: This one isn't quite as cut and dry as all that.

 

You tell me. Which of these two weapons is a toy?

 

Now there are definitely a ton of issues with how it was handled, and at the end of the day, I think the officers involved should be charged with negligent homicide at the least, but to call it a toy is disingenious.

 

Edited December 31, 2015 by Thanatos19

[blotsfan 2,112]

Considering the cop left the car and shot him in a span of 2 seconds, I don't think it really matters.

[Sarge+ 3,436]

Maybe the reason he shot him so quickly is because his toy gun looked super real. I don't know all the facts of this case. Just trying to keep up with the discussion.

[blotsfan 2,112]

Well if you're willing to watch video of a 12 year old being murdered, you can see that he wasn't pointing it at the cops or anything. There was literally no reason they couldn't tell him to put it down even if they thought it was real.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/video/2014/nov/26/cleveland-video-tamir-rice-shooting-police

[oochymp 2,393]

https://twitter.com/candacesmith_/status/682390585358086150

[Favre4Ever+ 4,476]

Wow. I think this is one of the few instances in these threads where I agree with Blots. I understand the complications of the gun looking real... But I don't think it justifies the actions. As has been stated.. the call into the police mentioned it probably being a fake. And I realize the cops don't know any better... But watching them pull up on the grass, get out of the car and literally fractions of a second later gun the kid down shows me that there was malicious intent from before the cops even got there.

I understand that cops have a hard job and I value their lives and the work they do for us... But I just can't agree with their actions in this instance. If the kid was threatening them or pointing it at them or.. anything, maybe. The whole.. "The cops felt threatened" or "the cops feared for their lives!"... Sorry, no buying it.

This was a cop(s) who didn't carry out the full duties of his job and a child is dead because of it. I wouldn't expect a court or a jury or anything to put him on murder, but manslaughter... most definitely.

[Cherry 1,302]

No, thats not something to be proud of. The cops killed an innocent kid because he was holding a toy gun. They did not talk to him. They got out of the car and shot him immediately. The call to the police said that he most likely was just holding a toy gun. They are racist murderers, and I don't care how many "good cops" there are. When they all stick up for this guy, they're complicit in the murder.

Yes. It's very sad. But the cops get a call saying there is someone roaming around the park with what seems like a gun? And when they arrive it looks very similar to a real gun. From what I saw it looked like he was lifting it up from his waist. Obviously a harmless action from the kids perspective but from the cops perspective it could mean an ensuing gun fight. Now for the real issue with your post.

 

In the half-second it took to kill Tamir Rice, do you really fucking think they killed him because he was black? Not because he had what looked like a weapon? Not because he seemed to be lifting it up? Not because they were warned someone was potentially armed and dangerous in park? If you think they killed him because he was black you're just stirring the shitpot and you're in the exact group I targeted with my original post. If you want to argue that the officers are cold-blooded murderers, fine. But there is nothing to support the claim that they killed a twelve year old boy because of his race.

 

The cops should've been much more passive, I'll agree with that. Should've pulled up on the street and yelled to the boy. Just opening fire as soon as they got out of the car was fucking stupid.

Edited December 31, 2015 by Chernobyl426

[blotsfan 2,112]

I believe the cop was more inclined to think he was a real threat because he was black. I guarantee you that if he was white, they would've told him to put the gun down before doing anything.

 

Not to mention, you know that they didn't even try to do any first aid, right? Which you are definitely supposed to do after you shoot someone.

[oochymp 2,393]

Not to mention, you know that they didn't even try to do any first aid, right? Which you are definitely supposed to do after you shoot someone.

I hesitate to say this is the worst part, largely because I don't really want to pick a worst part, but the fact that they didn't even try to do first aid is pretty reprehensible

 

As to the shooting, my understanding is that the officers were not told that the gun was likely a toy or that the individual holding it was likely a child (which would make most people suspect it to be a toy). Those are huge errors by the police dispatcher, but the result is that the officers who arrive on scene just see someone reaching for a gun. The orange cap had been removed from the toy gun, making it look real at a distance. Here's a picture of the gun Rice was holding with a real gun for some reason:

 

Like I said, I think it's highly unlikely they would have been convicted of murder or even manslaughter, I don't know that you'd be able to say beyond a reasonable doubt that the officers' fears were unreasonable, but there are enough questions that it should have gone to trial.

 

I will say that prosecutors are not supposed to take cases to trial if they don't believe the defendant is guilty, so if a full review of the evidence (which I haven't done) led the prosecutor to believe that this was a reasonable use of force (which I could see viewing this from the perspective of the officers based on what they knew) then I can't really fault him for not pushing for charges. I would feel better if the review had come from an independent prosecutor rather than someone who has to work with that police department constantly.

Edited December 31, 2015 by oochymp

[Cherry 1,302]

I believe the cop was more inclined to think he was a real threat because he was black. I guarantee you that if he was white, they would've told him to put the gun down before doing anything.

 

Not to mention, you know that they didn't even try to do any first aid, right? Which you are definitely supposed to do after you shoot someone.

Which is complete speculation and largely based on bullshit media talk. As I said, the cops made a few of fuckups. Go after them for those fuckups, not on some bullshit racial allegations.

[blotsfan 2,112]

So unless the cop is yelling "DIE NI***R DIE!" racism is never a thing.

 

Its ok Chernobyl, I actually used to think like you did on stuff like this. I grew out of it, maybe you can too.

[Cherry 1,302]

I'm not saying racism doesn't exist. I'm saying that you can't argue the reason the kid died was racism when there is no evidence to support that.

 

I completely understand why you guys like to talk shit because I'm young, but at this point you're just being a condescending asswipe.

[oochymp 2,393]

The biggest fuckup to me, and where I think all other fuckups originated, is the fact that the initial 911 call said "there's a kid pointing a toy gun at people in the park" (paraphrasing) and somehow that got through dispatch to the officers as "there's a guy at the park pointing a gun at people." Those two situations require vastly different responses and unfortunately the officers were responding to the wrong one.

 

Certainly they could have done a lot of things differently, I'd like to know why they pulled in so close to a guy they apparently suspected to be a potential shooter. By the time they pulled up Rice was about five feet from the door and when the officer stepped out of the passenger side there was nothing between him and Rice. Given that, I'm not surprised at all that he shot as soon as he saw the toy gun. But, if it's me, I'm pulling up at shouting distance (handguns are very inaccurate at any sort of distance) and putting the car somewhere that'll give me some cover when I get out. The officers here didn't do that and as a result they put themselves in a position that increased the potential threat.