RazorStar 4,025 Posted September 1, 2015 Perhaps it should be People Without a Lot of Money Lives Matter. It's like, you can't solve racism by putting the needs of one race above the other, and while the black lives movement is stated to be for a good cause, the issue with people getting shot dead by police officers is not a unique circumstance to young black people. I can understand where they're coming from, but it sounds hypocritical from an outside perspective. Besides, police brutality is clearly a class issue, and like all class issues, by keeping the poor uneducated, they fight amongst themselves instead of the people who are oppressing them. 5 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Favre4Ever+ 4,476 Posted September 1, 2015 "All lives matter" implies that the problems are not unique to black people. The black lives matters movement is because of the many cases of black people being treated like second class citizens. Just saying "all lives matter" does not call attention to the particular plight of black people in america. In fact, the use of it as a response is implying that black peoples' problems should not be a high priority. That implication isn't always intended by the speaker, but it comes through regardless. No, that's not what it is at ALL. Why do we need to call particular attention to the plight of black people in American? Why should we not call particular attention the plight of all peoples in America. I am not saying that there aren't instances of police brutality against blacks. I am not saying it isn't an issue. But is it unique to blacks? No... No it isn't. This country and all of the people in it have issues... And the issues of black people should not take priority over the issues of white people, of Hispanic people, of Asian people, or any other race or ethnicity. All of those lives matter... All of those peoples problems... They matter too. Not just the lives and problems of black people. You are fighting for inequality and it just isn't right. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blotsfan 2,112 Posted September 1, 2015 Question for you Favre: Do you believe in the concept of white privilege? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oochymp 2,393 Posted September 1, 2015 I'll grant that a lot of stuff on the Nightly Show is a little over the top almost to the point of race-baiting, but I think they nailed it on the "All Lives Matter" issue, I can't find this video in a format I can embed, but here you go, it's only about five minutes and worth the time: http://www.cc.com/video-clips/cwyjxq/the-nightly-show-with-larry-wilmore-all-words-matter---felonious-munk Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Favre4Ever+ 4,476 Posted September 1, 2015 Question for you Favre: Do you believe in the concept of white privilege? I am a big believer in the human privilege. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
butta54 371 Posted September 1, 2015 (edited) Because the point of "black lives matter" isn't to say "black people matter more." Its to say "hey! black people are being treated like shit in the US." Saying "all lives matter" is essentially saying "we're all being treated equally, and there isnt a problem with black people being treated worse." Right. Now I don't agree or follow the "Black Lives Matter" movement, but I do understand the thinking of people that do. When the "All Lives Matter" started to become the response people were upset and offended for the reasons blots is saying. I think essentially it is a miscommunication as these things often are. People with the original movement are simply saying that we have an issue ongoing in our communities and we want to address and attack the people that are causing the problem FOR the people being affected by it. In this case it is the black lives being lost to police brutality. On the other hand people can easily take that as another statement from a minority group that they have "it worse" when me as a non-minority or a different minority feel my people have the same struggles and I'm tired of this movement crying for your woes like ours don't exist. We should all matter. I was one of these people who felt this way even as a black man. I felt we are being so caught up in race and not worrying about everyone. The best way I had someone explain it to me is saying responding to "Black Lives Matter" with "All Lives Matter" is like being at a 5K race for breast cancer with a sign yelling "Throat Cancer is just as bad!" or some other disease along those lines. Just cause we highlight one fight doesn't mean we are ignoring all the other fights. We are just focused on OUR cause at this time. Now again I'm still not apart of the "Black Lives Matter" movement, because of my own reasons. But that is basically that issue broken down and Ferve's example is a classic case of PC running rampant resulting in an apology but no real knowledge being passed. Edited September 1, 2015 by Buttriots Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Favre4Ever+ 4,476 Posted September 1, 2015 I'll grant that a lot of stuff on the Nightly Show is a little over the top almost to the point of race-baiting, but I think they nailed it on the "All Lives Matter" issue, I can't find this video in a format I can embed, but here you go, it's only about five minutes and worth the time: http://www.cc.com/video-clips/cwyjxq/the-nightly-show-with-larry-wilmore-all-words-matter---felonious-munk Seems like they miss the point too... Nobody is saying the issues they are bringing up are irrelevant or don't exist. Not in the slightest. Those problems do exist... But we aren't fighting it in the right way. Black Lives Matter is a political grandstanding aimed at pinning the blame on institutions that aren't the problem. Luckily we have Ben Carson around to keep us straight and narrow. http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2015/08/24/blacklivesmatter-sanders-clinton-anger-column/32055507/ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oochymp 2,393 Posted September 1, 2015 so if I'm understanding you Favre, you're basically saying that the BLM protesters are protesting the wrong thing? that they shouldn't be protesting police violence that seems to be disproportionately impacting blacks? I just want to make sure I understand your argument Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Favre4Ever+ 4,476 Posted September 1, 2015 so if I'm understanding you Favre, you're basically saying that the BLM protesters are protesting the wrong thing? that they shouldn't be protesting police violence that seems to be disproportionately impacting blacks? I just want to make sure I understand your argument No. You don't understand. Re-read the Op-Ed would be my only advice Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sarge+ 3,436 Posted September 1, 2015 Razor had that right idea, tbh. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oochymp 2,393 Posted September 1, 2015 No. You don't understand. Re-read the Op-Ed would be my only advice okay, I re-read it, got the same thing, here are a few passages: The notion that some lives might matter less than others is meant to enrage. That anger is distracting us from what matters most. But unjust treatment from police did not fill our inner cities with people who face growing hopelessness. Young men and women can't find jobs. Parents don't have the skills to compete in a modern job market. Far too many families are torn and tattered by self-inflicted wounds. Violence often walks alongside people who have given up hope. This is where we should march: maybe I need to read it when it's not mid-night, but to me that screams "you're protesting the wrong thing" sure, he gives a paragraph to affirming "that racial policing issues exist and some rotten policemen took actions that killed innocent people" but the rest of the op-ed is pointing to stuff they should be protesting instead of the police violence I'm not saying that he doesn't make some good points, there are a lot of things about our current infra-structure that make social mobility extremely difficult, if not impossible, but he acts like it's simple to focus on big picture things when you've got immediate concerns about how to avoid getting killed in the street Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Favre4Ever+ 4,476 Posted September 1, 2015 Razor had that right idea, tbh. Ben Carson said the same thing, just weeks earlier. okay, I re-read it, got the same thing, here are a few passages: maybe I need to read it when it's not mid-night, but to me that screams "you're protesting the wrong thing" sure, he gives a paragraph to affirming "that racial policing issues exist and some rotten policemen took actions that killed innocent people" but the rest of the op-ed is pointing to stuff they should be protesting instead of the police violence I'm not saying that he doesn't make some good points, there are a lot of things about our current infra-structure that make social mobility extremely difficult, if not impossible, but he acts like it's simple to focus on big picture things when you've got immediate concerns about how to avoid getting killed in the street You didn't C&P the best parts that really establish what he's saying... Coincidence? lol First Sentence: The idea that disrupting and protesting Bernie Sanders speeches will change what is wrong in America is lunacy Not denying that the protestors do have a point (which is what makes Blots' previous accusations ridiculous): Of course, the protesters are right that racial policing issues exist and some rotten policemen took actions that killed innocent people. Those actions were inexcusable and they should be prosecuted to deter such acts in the future. But unjust treatment from police did not fill our inner cities with people who face growing hopelessness. The origin of the problem is not the police brutality. The origin of the problem is a lack of social structure. Weaknesses in the foundation of society are creating problems for the lowest of social classes causing disorder and chaos... Which THEN leads to situations of police brutality and violence. He wants Black Lives Matter to stop wasting their time interrupting candidates at rallies, because that will solve nothing. Being loud, obnoxious, rude, and pointing the finger at others will not create a better situation for you, your family, or your descendants. Rioting in the streets also will not do that. I am not saying every person part of BLM is part of this... but the perception of the group is extremely negative thanks to the media. Those riots don't help your cause. Starting fires, breaking storefronts, stealing that TV... How does that promote awareness to your hardship? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oochymp 2,393 Posted September 1, 2015 alright, I still think Dr. Carson's op-ed is saying they're protesting the wrong thing (since he spends 90% of the op-ed explaining what they should be protesting) but it sounds like you're arguing that they're protesting in the wrong way anyway, back to the original point, "Black Lives Matter" is a rallying cry of people saying we need attention, our needs aren't being met, "All Lives Matter" is a response of you're not special, you don't need extra attention, do you really not see why that would be met with a negative response? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oochymp 2,393 Posted September 2, 2015 I do want to give credit where it's due, at least that is a nuanced critique of the Black Lives Matter movement, and I think when you get down to it that's the problem with All Lives Matter as a response is that it dismisses the rallying cry without addressing any of the merits and to be clear, I don't think anyone disagrees with the notion that all lives do, in fact, matter, it's the use of that phrase in direct response to "Black Lives Matter" that becomes objectionable 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BwareDWare94 723 Posted September 2, 2015 (edited) JD, the problem with what you're saying is that it sounds like victim blaming, which is never OK. Also, your argument stating that their lack of social structure results in police brutality is incredibly flawed. If a police officer is capable of such a horrendous crime, they're capable regardless of circumstances. Edited September 2, 2015 by BwareDWare94 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RazorStar 4,025 Posted September 2, 2015 The issue is they are not only capable, they are encouraged. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Favre4Ever+ 4,476 Posted September 2, 2015 (edited) JD, the problem with what you're saying is that it sounds like victim blaming, which is never OK. Also, your argument stating that their lack of social structure results in police brutality is incredibly flawed. If a police officer is capable of such a horrendous crime, they're capable regardless of circumstances. Here's the issue with that and pulling the "victim blaming" card. There have been over 450 deaths at the hands of police this year (that figure is a few months old now)... Each one of those situations is different. Are there certainly instances where the person who ends up dead was completely 100% innocent, did nothing wrong, obeyed every command, etc? Yes. And those are terrible terrible instances. 1 of those is too many. But there are also instances that are a lot more blurred. Where things could have been handled differently and maybe it doesn't end as it does. And I am not talking about just blacks, just whites, just hispanics, ETC. I am talking about deaths attributed to law enforcement as a whole. And by the way... Of those 450+ people dead... Half of them were white. 29% were black. 14% were Hispanic. And varied percentages for other ethnic backgrounds. Those other problems and lack of social structure do contribute to higher rates of violence. That's backed up by fact. That doesn't excuse police officers and their decisions at times, Lord no. I feel that getting kids off the streets, getting them a better education, giving them a place to belong, getting people jobs, and trying to avoid the broken families... All of those things can contribute to less violence and an overall higher standard of living. I think a big problem with your line of thinking (and it's not just you) is that you (general sense of the word) want to grandstand a little bit. You want to take those really really horrific instances and generalize them amongst all people. Just the way you talk makes it seem that you want to assume every death at the hands of police comes at the expense of an innocent life -- which just isn't true. I don't want to put words or ideas into your mouth, so I apologize. But that just seems like the kind of vibe I am getting from your responses. It could just be the way that I am reading them, and if that's the case, I do apologize. And just to be very clear. Even though those instances where truly innocent people are dying at the hands of police, regardless of skin color may be some what rare, I am not trying to justify or downplay how horrific those instances are. As I said earlier, that stuff happening ONCE is too often. --------------------------------------------------------- Now what I actually came here for, ha. Found an article and really interesting read... It's a little long, but worth the read if you have time. http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/09/the-coddling-of-the-american-mind/399356/ Edited September 2, 2015 by Favre4Ever 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RazorStar 4,025 Posted September 2, 2015 http://killedbypolice.net/ Almost 800 now. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oochymp 2,393 Posted September 2, 2015 Now what I actually came here for, ha. Found an article and really interesting read... It's a little long, but worth the read if you have time. http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/09/the-coddling-of-the-american-mind/399356/ that was a very interesting read, thanks for sharing Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sarge+ 3,436 Posted September 2, 2015 From that article: The ultimate aim, it seems, is to turn campuses into “safe spaces” where young adults are shielded from words and ideas that make some uncomfortable. And more than the last, this movement seeks to punish anyone who interferes with that aim, even accidentally. You might call this impulse vindictive protectiveness. It is creating a culture in which everyone must think twice before speaking up, lest they face charges of insensitivity, aggression, or worse. Nailed it. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
butta54 371 Posted September 3, 2015 (edited) Didn't read the article, but looking at the quote Sarge posted from it... Looking at the word campus and the culture of universities is a great place to compare what we are seeing. Because the over-censored and politically "correct" rhetoric really started with the whole call for "diversity" around colleges in which it became a popular buzzword and "must-have" to include a narrative focused on preaching to students that everyone is accepted. Knowing from first hand experience of what you are taught to say....It became less about creating a environment where everyone can find their own niche free of persecution and more about shaming and attacking those who participated in or said anything that could be perceived as offensive to a certain group....and as the number of groups began to grow and people started "identifying" with more and more things "diversity" became just a policing mechanism of helping people avoid uncomfortable or awkward situations while on their campus. Which to an extent makes sense. However, schools are already known for creating this false sense of reality or "bubble" in which students live in. Even with the internet age...the amount of information coming in still feels far too distant when students aren't actually living in it. And I've seen for myself (as I'm sure others here have) how the "campus life" can really lure you to sleep with the convenience, the resources, the famility atmosphere, and overall care-free environment. I mean on my campus we had THREE police departments. While college is a great escape, it is not a dipiction of real life and I believe a lot of students who came from privlege were hurt by continuing to believe in this reality in which everything is sweet. I say all this to get to the point that this mentality has been sweeping the nation. Again as more information is shared, and more "diversity" emerges we have a growing PC culture in which everyone wants to attack people for saying something. I don't think it helps to act as if the world will all be on the same page, people make jokes and say things against race, religion, gender, sexual orientation, and other things. But there is a difference between hearing something YOU find offensive and being verbally attacked daily or put in a hostile environment. I think it is a good thing to understand you will hear and see things that you might not like, but the ability to discern between malicious intent and a person just doing what they feel doesn't cross the lines is a part of being an adult. We can't police everyone and we do no favors making people think we can. Edited September 3, 2015 by Buttriots 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Phailadelphia Posted September 4, 2015 Democratic Presidential candidate Martin O'Malley was at a rally last month... Black Lives Matter activists were shouting the entire time and interrupting him, demanding that he address the issues of police brutality and criminal justice. They began chanting " Black Lives Matter " O'Malley responded with, " Black lives matter. White lives matter. All lives matter ". The guy got instantly booed to ridiculous levels. He was later forced to apologize for his comment. I am sorry... But... That is some serious, straight up bull shit. The guy was forced to apologize because he considers all lives important and not just those of blacks? 'Murica, Pls 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
OSUViking 505 Posted September 4, 2015 JD, the problem with what you're saying is that it sounds like victim blaming, which is never OK. Also, your argument stating that their lack of social structure results in police brutality is incredibly flawed. If a police officer is capable of such a horrendous crime, they're capable regardless of circumstances. Sometimes, if you know or strongly perceive something to happen, it's not your fault that it happened to you, but it is your fault that you didn't put yourself in a situation to avoid it. I'm not a proponent of victim blaming, but if it's well documented that walking down a certain street means you're likely to be shot or robbed, and you do it anyway, there's still a problem with your decision to choose that street. That doesn't have much to do with the context, just felt like pointing out sometimes people knowingly put themselves in stupid situations and that can't be tolerated, either. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites