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Is Roe v Wade pretty much done if the GOP gets another justice on the Supreme Court? I don't know what would stop them from going after Obergefell v Hodges argument from 2015.

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Is Roe v Wade pretty much done if the GOP gets another justice on the Supreme Court? I don't know what would stop them from going after Obergefell v Hodges argument from 2015.

Yeah it probably is. Abortion will just be in some states and illegal in others. They won't be able to federally ban it (at least not any time soon).

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We need to revisit the abortion debate. I might start a thread later on tonight or this weekend. This country has shifted morally to the point where the majority thinks the morally superior viewpoint is to allow a developing life to be snuffed out and sucked out. That's downright crazy.

 

And will nobody acknowledge that the vast majority of unplanned pregnancies are the result of being reckless sexually? Take the pill or wear the condom. Not that hard to prevent. And the right of individuals to get their rocks off doesn't supersede the right of the resulting life to develop and flourish.

Yeah, I'll start a thread soon.

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Ooh, dunking on you sounds fun.

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Yeah it probably is. Abortion will just be in some states and illegal in others. They won't be able to federally ban it (at least not any time soon).

What would stop them from federally banning it? Sounds like they're going to have social progress by the balls the next few decades so I'm having trouble understanding why they wouldn't just try to kill it.

Edited by OSUViking

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There are two obstenibly pro-choice republicans in the Senate right now, so I don't think they'd have the votes for a full federal ban. It's also not a popular thing so on some level they'd be worried about pissing voters off, maybe. They'd be happy claiming they got rid of Roe v Wade and just calling that their win.

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You're assuming those two people are going to vote against his nominee on the suspicion they'd vote against RvW. They're not going to answer directly whether they'd overturn it.

 

These midterms are critical. If the GOP gets a larger majority in the Senate and keeps its majority in the House, we could set back the progress we've been making for decades.

Edited by Thanatos

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You're assuming those two people are going to vote against his nominee on the suspicion they'd vote against RvW. They're not going to answer directly whether they'd overturn it.

 

No I'm not. Overturning Roe V Wade would just allow states to decide whether its illegal or not. So the civilized states that vote for democrats would still have it.

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So the civilized states that vote for democrats would still have it.

Lol. As opposed to killing something that is alive. That is ironic.

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civilized states that vote democrat lol

 

There's nothing civilized about hearing, "We don't want it! Dismember it and vacuum it out!" and then complying with those wishes. Abortion is not some sort of civilized, morally sound practice when it's an on-demand procedure. It's a sad, necessary-to-have-available operation for dire circumstances. Otherwise it's a direct escape route away from personal accountability. Use contraception. Obviously it's not full-proof but if people had the intellectual capacity to care more about not having to go through a traumatic experience like an abortion over having a quicker orgasm, it wouldn't be so prevalent.

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I would rather see a woman accept that she her and her partner (if she has one) would be awful parents and not subject a child to that kind of environment. Adoption isn't the 1-to-1 match that provides a nice alternative.

 

Personally I don't see a moral issue over this, but I also don't think that life is as inherently valuable as other people. It just is; if we *really* came from higher power who instilled incredible value in each life, I might think differently, but at least the second part is not true by default.

 

I tend to think life with suffering is better than no life at all, but I don't expect people to agree with this universally. If a woman thinks a pregnancy would be bad for her for whatever reason, more power to her, at least she's honest with herself. I imagine people thinking that women like get off on being able to have abortions. It's not like it's a pleasant experience.

 

I do agree we should educate young people about sex but who are the ones blocking that? The same hypocrites who decry the plague abortion has brought on the world.

To be fair to you, Bware, it's hard for me to look at the pro-life argument as rational because I spent my life in Catholic schooling which pumped students full of emotionally charged messages. They worked on some and on the complete opposite end of the spectrum it made me think pro-life people are just as snowflakey as those they decry. I'll try to avoid lumping you in with that lot but I'll admit it's hard for me to see a rational side to your argument.

 

Edit: I'm not sure I can even relate this to your post Bware, apologies if it's a cluttered mess. I think it's best to sum up my perspective as this. I agree we should address the issue of unwanted pregnancy at it's source, before the pregnancy occurs. Educate people aboit safe sex and make those resources readily available. However we can't rely on that as the end-all to unwanted pregnancy and the moral argument against abortion isn't appealing enough for me to say abortion shouldn't be an option for any woman. A lot of human sexual behavior comes down to a woman making a choice regarding a mate, I see no reason they shouldn't have agency over a reproductive process that happens at their expense.

Edited by OSUViking
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I sort of agree with Bware here. I am not opposed to abortion, and I am no fan of taking sovereignty over other individuals, unless they are true criminals. I just don't think we should try to soften what this is. You ARE killing something in a lot of cases. Let's not try to dress this up as some civil thing, it is uncivil, but an option that should not be abolished.

 

I am with you in I don't value life much, with the exception of kids. I love children. I don't know about the suffering thing either. It is not often a life is all misery without your consent. Sure, some parts are shit and there is not much you can do about it, but most people have the choice to make their lives better. I'm not going to go into great extent here, and I'm not saying this somewhat weighs me story because I have an amazing life, I'm just saying that I have had a lot of hard times in my life, and I wouldn't trade the life I've got were the experiences I've been through for anything. I grew up in foster care, I watched my mom died, my Dad ran out on us, my best friend and his family was murdered when I was growing up, some of the crappy things about war, although I signed up for that so I cannot complain, and breaking my neck, and having my wife have a miscarriage as a side effect of a drug she was on, that was supposed to be entirely safe. All of those experiences, have made my life difficult in the moment, but it has made everything worth it in the end. I think it is one of those instances that without bitter you don't enjoy sweet.

 

all that said, I'm not advocating that we make people suffer for no reason, just to enhance their character. It was an anecdotal story about how you can have bad things happen, and still have an amazing life. I will also concede that while it shows a serious lack of judgement to have a kid, and not think you were ready to deal with the consequences. I would rather have the mistake end there, and you have a child and resenting it, when it was your mistake to begin with. I think it shows you have piss poor character when that happens, but I would rather you not take it out on a child. So I guess in that sense it's better for a child to not be born, then to grow up on loved and hated for something that wasn't their fault.

Edited by Omerta
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Hmm Ngata I think we agree on the suffering aspect. People can suffer tremendously but they can also experience plenty of incredible things in life. I agree that perspective is clouded by the life I've lived here in the US but I think it can be true for many. It's like, with life you can suffer and you can also persevere, without life neither of those options is possible. It is one of the things that has helped me with certain uncomfortable thoughts.

 

I can agree that it's not an issue to be taken lightly but that's something for the mother (and possibly the father) to concern herself with and not the government.

 

Edit: hopefully I get this in on time. The argument about suffering can apply to childhood trauma but it's such a mixed bag. You can have people like me with serious emotional neglect issues but let's take a step back. I don't want to take away from others experiences but I can do it with my own. What is emotional neglect compared to being raped by a caregiver for their early life? One can still recover but I agree with you that it's just such a heinous thing and there's no reason for a kid to grow up in that. Our social network is not capable of stopping this from happening. I'd agree I'd rather these people throw their romanticized concept of parenting out the window and accept they would be awful parents and just terminate the pregnancy.

Edited by OSUViking

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Absolutely. It actually kind of pains me to say that, because I think for a lot of people having kids is a life-changing experience. I cannot speak for everyone, however I know for me, I never wanted children either. And then I had my son, and it was an Indescribable moment. There really is only been two or three huge Paradigm shifts in my life, and that was Far and Away the biggest. And then when we got Macy, it just kind of reaffirmed what I already knew. That was my purpose in life. I think this ties in well with the suffering conversation we're having as well. I think when it comes to life, anyone can persevere, you just have to know your reason why. Which ironically enough also ties in with something else we talked about. The value of a human life. It's different for everyone, and it is just as arbitrary on how I view the value of my life versus the value of others. I know for me personally, the way I assess how valuable my life is, is how much better off I think my children will be in this world after I'm gone, as opposed to had they not had me in their life. The same goes for my wife, long after I'm dead if those three at the moment, maybe more, can say that I added a tremendous amount of value for their life, and I help them through this life with far more joy than without me, that my life was a resounding success. My ceiling in life, should be there floor. That is how I view it.

 

Now other people will do it differently in that's fine. I say all that to say, it is extremely hard for me to say we shouldn't have abortions, because I really do think kids can change your life, and they can give you an absolute and definitive purpose on why you were here. That being said to abused that gift by allowing an unwanted pregnancy comment and taking it out on the child as an untenable solution to me. So my stance on abortion, is best summed up by I would rather not have them be necessary at all, but since they will we should do it in the most responsible way

 

Not to mention even if they are legal they're still going to happen, and once we've already decided to get rid of the fetus, we should mitigate the damages much as possible. So if we can do it in a way where only one person dies, instead of 2 that would be an ideal outcome.

Edited by Omerta

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The vast majority of people who have children aren't ready to have children. There is no perfect time to have a kid. Children are often unexpected and those who accept the responsibility often thrive with children. Those who are self-centered and egotistical see children as a hindrance.

 

There is nothing more disgusting than a fully grown adult who is so selfish that they think a child would be a hindrance to their lives. And I don't mean hindrance as in "my life would change." Well no shit, Sherlock. I mean people who think their lives would be worse and that they'd be making some sort of sacrifice in order to have a kid. I'm sorry, but if a person would rather fill their life with material over raising and nurturing another living thing--if a person would find it more fulfilling to have the constantly available freedom to be materially gluttonous as opposed to constructing and molding another human being into a person able to competently handle life, that's fucked up to the highest extent.

 

Look, I get it to an extent. Different folks, different strokes. That being said, anyone whose perspective is developed and honest understands that constructing something over time is more satisfying than succumbing to material appetite.

 

People who regret having children or dislike their children are some of the foulest, most worthless people on this planet. They are narcissistic half wits with the perspectives of adolescents.

Edited by BwareDWare94

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I mean people who think their lives would be worse and that they'd be making some sort of sacrifice in order to have a kid.

Just as an aside in case you use this argument later, let's be clear about one thing. kids are a tremendous sacrifice, and in some ways the ultimate sacrifice. I can't speak for everyone, but I gave up everything that I was, every personal goal that I had, and every dream that was entirely my own, the moment I became a father. My entire life revolves around those children in my wife, my dream is to do the absolute best that I can buy them, so it is not entirely self-serving anymore. I don't get that luxury, it is 100% about them 100% of the time. Now, don't get me wrong, I absolutely love my life that way. Those kids have given me so much more that I could have ever had on my own, but make no mistake, it was a huge sacrifice.

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Just as an aside in case you use this argument later, let's be clear about one thing. kids are a tremendous sacrifice, and in some ways the ultimate sacrifice. I can't speak for everyone, but I gave up everything that I was, every personal goal that I had, and every dream that was entirely my own, the moment I became a father. My entire life revolves around those children in my wife, my dream is to do the absolute best that I can buy them, so it is not entirely self-serving anymore. I don't get that luxury, it is 100% about them 100% of the time. Now, don't get me wrong, I absolutely love my life that way. Those kids have given me so much more that I could have ever had on my own, but make no mistake, it was a huge sacrifice.

How about it's an initial sacrifice that over time becomes a good choice? Knowing the story with how your one child was taken on as the result of worthless addict parents, I already have a lot of respect for you on this topic.

 

This whole pro abortion and "kids aren't for everybody" agenda is, in my opinion, part of a larger movement among young folks shunning responsibility and avoiding the maturing process of becoming a real, actual adult.

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It's also a heavy financial burden to raise a child to term, especially in the states where health care isn't covered by taxes. Not to mention the financial that comes with actually raising a child if one decides to go that path. I think the thing is, if organizations like planned parenthood didn't exist, women would still need to find ways to get abortion due to health risk, financial risk, or otherwise, and doing the process illegally could have far worse consequences on women than simply letting them do so legally. I think the UN even considers restriction to abortion access a form of torture.

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How about it's an initial sacrifice that over time becomes a good choice? Knowing the story with how your one child was taken on as the result of worthless addict parents, I already have a lot of respect for you on this topic.

This whole pro abortion and "kids aren't for everybody" agenda is, in my opinion, part of a larger movement among young folks shunning responsibility and avoiding the maturing process of becoming a real, actual adult.

Yeah man, I absolutely agree with that statement. I do think wholeheartedly that it is a sacrifice, so I didn't know if you were saying that in a way to imply that it was not, or that it being a sacrifice was a bad thing. I may have misunderstood you, but yes I absolutely agree that it is definitely a sacrifice.

 

As to young kids being irresponsible and trying to shirk the responsibility of their actions, I guess I could buy that in certain circumstances. I think overall, that when you see those young teenage kids who have children, and they are taking out their decisions on the kid, you have to ask yourself a horrible question. Would it be better for that child to grow up in a household where it doesn't feel loved, and never gets any idea of self-worth. Or would it be better for it to have never been born? I can't really give a definitive answer, because I myself couldn't imagine being in that position. That said, that position exists, so abortions are going to happen anyway. The question becomes do you risk having the carrier of the child died to? I guess I could understand an argument for that as a deterrent, but I don't really think we should make death of deterrent for abortion.

 

really my only skin in this entire conversation was to say let's not dress up abortion come and put it in the same sense of getting your tires rotated, or going in for a checkup. You're killing something, so let's not act like this is a civilized thing to do. Not just because it isn't civilize does not mean that it isn't necessary. Those things aren't mutually exclusive in some cases. I would prefer to live in a world where does it happen, but since it will we might as well make it safe as possible.

 

Also something to consider, is the moment you start putting restrictions on it, saying you can have it in this instance, but not that one. You are giving a legislative body power to make decisions, and we lose sovereignty over our own minds and bodies. That would be an extremely dangerous precedent to set.

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Abortion is always the hardest issue for me.. I don't like abortions, but individual rights and liberties should trump all, IMO... So the woman should be able to do what she wants, but at the same time what rights does the other person have in this (the child). I know for a fact it isn't any of my business either way (doesn't mean I can't have an opinion, I'm just not going to force it on anyone).

 

I hate how the debate always falls to a "woman's right to choose". That sentence always stops at choose. If you are going to fight for the right to choose, you should finish that sentence and tell people what you are choosing to do.

With that said.. Theoretically, say abortions are totally banned. I think things would get bad. Out come the coat hangers, weird chemical "remedies", other dangerous ways to induce an abortion or miscarriage.

Traditionally in this country, if you ban something -- you just drive people to do it more and get that thing / service in more dangerous ways. Banning abortions won't get rid of abortions. That's not a solution.

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How about it's an initial sacrifice that over time becomes a good choice? Knowing the story with how your one child was taken on as the result of worthless addict parents, I already have a lot of respect for you on this topic.

 

This whole pro abortion and "kids aren't for everybody" agenda is, in my opinion, part of a larger movement among young folks shunning responsibility and avoiding the maturing process of becoming a real, actual adult.

I disagree with this. Not everyone can flip a switch like Ngata and it's oversimplifying it to say it's young people skirting personal growth. Don't forget the financial aspects that Razor mentioned.

 

I think the overwhelming majority of people who go into parenthood without a clue of what's expected of them will fail in many ways, overall their kids will still have some opportunities to recover but it's clear to see these generational cycles are difficult to escape. I can only speak from anecodtal experience and so I won't pretend this is universally true, but I see people of all ages walking around with a ticking time bomb of the emotions they're incapable of processing. A parent putting a child through that is going to have negative effects regardless.

 

The information is there for parents to understand what's expected of them. The ability to reflect on ones emotions and learn from them is possible without children, in fact that's a skill people should learn as they age and not as they're facing the choice of terminating or completing a pregnancy. People can mature and educate themselves about parenthood before having kids.

Edited by OSUViking

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Of course they can but the perfect walk up to parenthood is not completed by most people and never will be because people like to fuck more than they like the to think about the potential results of that. One of the main reasons I went from pro-life to pro-abortion was because I have friends who have had abortions and friendship is more important than ideology and I didn't know if I could remain pro-life and still treat them the same. Now I'm pro-life again with the understanding that while they may come to know about that stance, it's up to them how they react to it. If I don't mistreat them--or change the way that I treat them--then it's entirely on them if my being pro-life pushes them away.

 

The main reason I'm pro-life again ties in with the overall lack of personal accountability I see among our generations. From fucking repeatedly without any contraception in place (and then assuming it's morally okay to say "we don't want this child so we're going to terminate the pregnancy that resulted from our carelessness") to racking up tens of thousands of dollars in credit card debt, abortion is just one cog in the machine of "it's somebody else's fault that I'm broke and reckless!"

 

As a society we are walking down a path of utter barbarism based on materialism and this is just part of it.

Edited by BwareDWare94

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Lol this debate is going to go absolutely nowhere. Have fun guys.

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Lol this debate is going to go absolutely nowhere. Have fun guys.

How's that? I mean to some extent or another we all agree it should not be banned.

 

I mean I guess in that way,nobody will change their mind so it will go nowhere.

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Bware, I totally get where you're coming from with the responsibility aspect of this... but don't you agree that it would be irresponsible to have a child if you think you won't be able to handle it?

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