OSUViking 505 Posted August 14, 2017 The Confederate flag is a fucking disgraceful piece of shit and a general rule of mine is to not associate with people who display it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blotsfan 2,112 Posted August 15, 2017 (edited) Most of the Confederate Monuments were erected in the early 1900s as a reaction to Reconstruction, when the South was almost an occupied territory to deal with the pressures created by immediate emancipation. Reconstruction had been over for 40 years when the creation of the statues spiked, though it shouldn't have been. The early ending of reconstruction was one of the worst things done in our country's history (but thats a topic for another day). Also, what about the statues put up in the 1950s? Should there be a plaque explaining that they were put up because they wanted black people to feel unwelcome in the community, which is something that they feel is not worth undoing? Edited August 15, 2017 by blotsfan Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oochymp 2,393 Posted August 15, 2017 I don't think there's a single answer that'll work for every Confederate monument, I think it's something that each community needs to grapple with and sort out on its own, hopefully peacefully. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blotsfan 2,112 Posted August 15, 2017 I don't think there's a single answer that'll work for every Confederate monument, I think it's something that each community needs to grapple with and sort out on its own, hopefully peacefully. Would you be ok with building new confederate monuments? It's still this history of the area. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blotsfan 2,112 Posted August 15, 2017 These guys know what's up. https://twitter.com/DerrickQLewis/status/897235297485901825 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Favre4Ever+ 4,476 Posted August 15, 2017 (edited) I hope they injured themselves in the process. Although I don't know what that particular "monument" was, so maybe it was called for. Edit:Time says it was a monument erected in 1924 for the (confederate) soldiers who died in the war. Idk, honestly.. I kind of have mixed feelings on this. I understand the perspective of the protesters. I can see why some people wouldn't want to glorify Confederate soldiers. But at the same time, I find that soldiers are being soldiers. They basically do what they are told and expected not to ask questions. Or they are fighting out of necessity or fear.For example, I am not going to tear down American soldier monuments today because they helped topple foreign regimes so we can place puppet leaders there.. I am not going to deface memorials honoring soldiers who were responsible for the deaths of innocent people to acquire oil, trade routes / partners, and other resources. And admittedly, I am only saying this because it is my country. If this happened somewhere else, I probably wouldn't really care either way. And for fucks sake, the thing was put up in 1924... Again, I understand their perspective to a degree, but to get so angry over something that has been sitting there for damn near 100 years is ridiculous and over-reacting to the extreme. If they wanted it down, I am not against that.With that said, if the masses of Durham wanted that statue down, I think they should have just done it the right way. This isn't that. Edited August 15, 2017 by Olenna4Ever 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thanatos 2,847 Posted August 15, 2017 They should all be arrested and thrown in jail for vandalism and destruction of property. There is a right way to go about doing this and a wrong way. That's the wrong way. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oochymp 2,393 Posted August 15, 2017 Would you be ok with building new confederate monuments? It's still this history of the area. No, but this is a red herring, there's history wrapped up in the monuments not only in what they depict but also in when and why they were built, which is why I really like the idea of adding interpretive plaques and giving the statues more context. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Milla4Prez63 678 Posted August 15, 2017 I don't think the confederate flag will ever disapear or be banned. But I do think it's funny that people who proudly display that flag are some who claim to be the most patriotic. Yeah, proudly display the flag that symbolizes suceeding from the country you claim to be so patriotic about lol. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Favre4Ever+ 4,476 Posted August 15, 2017 I don't think the confederate flag will ever disapear or be banned. But I do think it's funny that people who proudly display that flag are some who claim to be the most patriotic. Yeah, proudly display the flag that symbolizes suceeding from the country you claim to be so patriotic about lol. To be fair... maybe that's what it means to you. Is it what it means to them? (Maybe it is, I don't know, lol) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sarge+ 3,436 Posted August 15, 2017 One thing we can all agree on... That flag is the biggest participation trophy ever. lol snowflake right wing voters? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241 Posted August 15, 2017 (edited) Liking the flag either makes you a racist, or someone who doesn't know the history of the country or has been taught the watered down history i.e. textbooks in Texas calling slavery "servitude". Then remove all the monuments and statues in Washington and the flag too because those are symbols of oppression.No, they weren't just fighting to keep slaves. They fought to keep their profits. The south was trying to avoid what you ignorantly comply with now..taxes.Like I said, fighting over symbolism is a waste of time. Slavery is corporate now and all races in the U.S. are victims. You are all slaves to taxes and medical insurance and everything else that is capitalism. The black man can live in his own house now but he is still a 2nd and 3rd class citizen in this country,profiled negatively in news,media,literature etc.Hating a flag and and a statue won't change that. Stop playing mental gymnastics with yourself. The leaders of the Confederacy made it clear that they were going to war over slavery, this is laid out in black and white writing. The "Declaration of Causes of Seceding States" make it very clear that the war is about the right to own slaves. There is no subjectivity, or "gray area" or "lied history" here. The south went to war over the rights to own and profit from slaves. Stop trying so hard. Edited August 15, 2017 by DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Milla4Prez63 678 Posted August 15, 2017 To be fair... maybe that's what it means to you. Is it what it means to them? (Maybe it is, I don't know, lol) I mean people can take whatever meaning they want out of it I suppose, but the flag was the flag of the rebel states trying to succeed from the union. I just think it's funny because I live in an area with a lot of proud Southerners who fly that flag but they are also the first to demand the head of someone like Colin Kaepernick for disrespecting the American flag. If you ask me waving the flag that represents a group that wanted to separate themselves from America is more disrespectful to America than sitting for a song, but eh that's just me. To each their own. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blotsfan 2,112 Posted August 15, 2017 Again, why do you need to defend your present reality as a wage slave? You are an American slave now Comparing what we have now to actual slavery is beyond insulting. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Favre4Ever+ 4,476 Posted August 15, 2017 The war wasn't to fucking free slaves in the first place. The north would gave kept theirs if this war never happened. And the fuck knows how long it took to get that many people to comply? It's not slave owners were going to have any cops knocking on the door The Union states were banning slavery as a practice before the war began but I think most people know that the Union didn't begin fighting to free slaves... Saying something like the entire north would've kept slaves is about as ignorant as saying EVERYONE who at all likes the Confederate flag is a racist. Wrong. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blotsfan 2,112 Posted August 15, 2017 The Union states were banning slavery as a practice before the war began but I think most people know that the Union didn't begin fighting to free slaves... Saying something like the entire north would've kept slaves is about as ignorant as saying EVERYONE who at all likes the Confederate flag is a racist. Wrong. So you admit that the confederacy's reason for existing was to keep slavery intact, but it's flag still isn't inherently racist? Or does that mean it is, and every non-racist person who flies it is just ignorant? So that means that supporting its display, as well as other monuments to the confederacy are racist then. Again, overly simplistic belief in propaganda on your part. The north didn't decide this. Govt told people to do it. No one knows how long it took to be accepted and carried out. You keep making the mistake of ok nly being able to tell me you read something provided for you that you choose to believe. Again,you are still a slave.it just appears more pleasant now. The whip has been replaced by consumer debt Slaves had no rights. They had no property. They were not allowed to learn to read. Their families were split up at the whims of their owners, never to see their children again. They were literally beaten, often for no reason. The women were regularly raped. Comparing chattel slavery to debt is abhorrent. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241 Posted August 15, 2017 (edited) You have no critical thinking skills.Life is never that cookie cutter simple.The material made it clear? No, you believe the material provided for you by the side that won.Mental gymnastics? Ie you're a simpleton not in intellectually good enough shape to keep up.Again, why do you need to defend your present reality as a wage slave? You are an American slave now No, sometimes life is that simple. I.E. when someone tries to take a Ludacris profit making enterprise from you that is essentially the backbone of your economy. And dictates you lifestyle. You'll tell them to kick rocks, and throw a big fuck you. The war wasn't to fucking free slaves in the first place. The north would have kept theirs if this war never happened. And who the fuck knows how long it took to get that many people to comply? It's not like slave owners were going to have any cops knocking on the door in the north or south any time soon The great comedic irony The Constitution of the United States, in its fourth Article, provides as follows: "No person held to service or labor in one State, under the laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in consequence of any law or regulation therein, be discharged from such service or labor, but shall be delivered up, on claim of the party to whom such service or labor may be due." [editor's note: this is the Fugitive Slave Clause in the original Constitution whereby the North promised to return escaped slaves to their "owners" in the South] Declaration of Causes of Seceding States Edited August 15, 2017 by DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Favre4Ever+ 4,476 Posted August 15, 2017 So you admit that the confederacy's reason for existing was to keep slavery intact, but it's flag still isn't inherently racist? Or does that mean it is, and every non-racist person who flies it is just ignorant? So that means that supporting its display, as well as other monuments to the confederacy are racist then. What do they call this in philosophy... affirming the consequent? Or... maybe it's the opposite of that? *shrugs* Regardless, just because the first thing you say is true doesn't mean everything after it as all. Just because slavery was the foundation of the civil war doesn't make everyone who likes / displays / whatevers the confederate flag a racist. It's a logical fallacy. Plus, the efforts of the South being summed up as "keeping slavery intact" is entirely too simple of an explanation. The entire South was built on slave labor. Their economy was slave labor. Removing that completely changes their way of life. In general, people are afraid of change and they were doing what they thought they had to keep the status quo... They were wrong, obviously. And that isn't a justification for slavery. It's merely providing greater understanding. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blotsfan 2,112 Posted August 15, 2017 Plus, the efforts of the South being summed up as "keeping slavery intact" is entirely too simple of an explanation. The entire South was built on slave labor. Their economy was slave labor. Removing that completely changes their way of life. In general, people are afraid of change and they were doing what they thought they had to keep the status quo... They were wrong, obviously. And that isn't a justification for slavery. It's merely providing greater understanding. So what you're saying is, the point of the confederacy was to keep slavery intact. So when people choose to celebrate it nowadays, they're celebrating a nation created to keep slavery intact. Despite having the incredibly obvious hindsight that slavery is bad. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Favre4Ever+ 4,476 Posted August 15, 2017 So what you're saying is, the point of the confederacy was to keep slavery intact. So when people choose to celebrate it nowadays, they're celebrating a nation created to keep slavery intact. Despite having the incredibly obvious hindsight that slavery is bad. You did it again, logical fallacy. But less of it. Keep trying. Please. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
OSUViking 505 Posted August 15, 2017 Some of the people I know who fly that flag like the Confederacy because they gave a giant middle finger to the government. I don't consider them racist in the slightest, but I still think their stance is idiotic and have no respect for that line of thinking. It's short-sighted, but to say they are racist for that is indeed fallacious. The second you say "everyone in this demographic behaves this exact way" you are wrong. People have their own reactions and motivations. There may be patterns, but no one got to the same point in the same way. I know it's easy and convenient to be able to jump lump people together like that, but it's not realistic. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Favre4Ever+ 4,476 Posted August 15, 2017 Some of the people I know who fly that flag like the Confederacy because they gave a giant middle finger to the government. I don't consider them racist in the slightest, but I still think their stance is idiotic and have no respect for that line of thinking. It's short-sighted, but to say they are racist for that is indeed fallacious. The second you say "everyone in this demographic behaves this exact way" you are wrong. People have their own reactions and motivations. There may be patterns, but no one got to the same point in the same way. I know it's easy and convenient to be able to jump lump people together like that, but it's not realistic. Thank you for applying logic to your perspective / opinion. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cherry 1,302 Posted August 15, 2017 They should all be arrested and thrown in jail for vandalism and destruction of property. There is a right way to go about doing this and a wrong way. That's the wrong way. Another Than/Cherry agreement. /Thread 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241 Posted August 15, 2017 (edited) Some of the people I know who fly that flag like the Confederacy because they gave a giant middle finger to the government. I don't consider them racist in the slightest, but I still think their stance is idiotic and have no respect for that line of thinking. It's short-sighted, but to say they are racist for that is indeed fallacious. The second you say "everyone in this demographic behaves this exact way" you are wrong. People have their own reactions and motivations. There may be patterns, but no one got to the same point in the same way. I know it's easy and convenient to be able to jump lump people together like that, but it's not realistic. I don't buy this. The very people who birthed the flag viewed it as a symbol of white supremacy. Slavery, and the idea that God himself made whites superior to other races was the cornerstone of the south, and that flag represents it. To the south, slavery, and the power, wealth from it. This was what binded the south, and was the biggest point of pride. Choosing to ignore the history, significance, and the message of the flag to honor it, and conjure up your own fanciful reason, or half truth, means that you do not care, or actively chose to ignore what it actually means, this does not change reality. Regardless of your intentions you are actively endorsing something. Come up with whatever BS reason you want, but lets call it spades of spades. The flag is a symbol of racism in all it's iterations and honoring it (for whatever reason you can come up with) still makes you a racist. Their are a billion and one ways to show the government the middle finger and to chose that speaks volumes. Edited August 15, 2017 by DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oochymp 2,393 Posted August 15, 2017 To me, the Confederate flag is an entirely different issue from monuments. At this point, I'm entirely comfortable saying that anyone waving a Confederate flag is either racist or willfully ignorant and it has far more to do with how that flag has been used in the years since the Civil War. The Confederate flag has been used by so many racist groups and for so many racist events that racists have co-opted the symbol. Anyone who flies it at this point and claims to not be a racist is intentionally ignoring how that symbol is viewed by everyone who isn't underneath one. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites