Best Player In the NFL, Round of 128

[Favre4Ever+ 4,476]

Edited April 12, 2011 by Favre4Ever

[SteVo+ 3,702]

All high seeds except Tramon Williams.

[BLUE 1,026]

Yep, I did the same as SteFan....

[RazorStar 4,025]

All high seeds sans Briggs and Forte.

[Favre4Ever+ 4,476]

Upset(s) bolded.

 

Rodgers > Raji

Megatron > Jennings

The Best RG in Football > Purple Slave

Kevin Williams > Julius Peppers

Antoine "Disrespected" Winfield > Chad Greenway

Clay maker > Briggs

Forte > Urlacher

Tramon > Little Boy Suh

[Turry 755]

All high seeds except Briggs, Forte and Tramon

[Maverick 791]

I actually went with the favorite for all of them. Lame, I know...

[AllYouNeedIsLovie 377]

All favorites

[DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241]

Winfield is the only upset I chose.

 

The fact that it's a tie between Suh and Tramon Williams completely baffles me. Completely.

[Bay 2,003]

Winfield is the only upset I chose.

 

The fact that it's a tie between Suh and Tramon Williams completely baffles me. Completely.

 

Are you puzzled by Suh being tied with Tramon or Tramon being tied with Suh? If you catch my drift.

[Favre4Ever+ 4,476]

Winfield is the only upset I chose.

 

The fact that it's a tie between Suh and Tramon Williams completely baffles me. Completely.

 

Ya... It baffles me too. Tramon is one of the leagues elite corners, who arguably had one of the biggest impacts on our Super Bowl victory. What if he doesn't pick off Vick at the end of the game? What if he doesn't curb stomp Matt Ryan before half time? Suh is just a goo DT... The fact that Tramon is the "underdog" at all is baffling.

 

So, I agree with you Dmac.

Edited April 14, 2011 by Favre4Ever

[DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241]

Are you puzzled by Suh being tied with Tramon or Tramon being tied with Suh? If you catch my drift.

 

no. Actually, I don't catch your drift.

 

Ya... It baffles me too. Tramon is one of the leagues elite corners, who arguably had one of the biggest impacts on our Super Bowl victory. What if he doesn't pick off Vick at the end of the game? What if he doesn't curb stomp Matt Ryan before half time? Suh is just a goo DT... The fact that Tramon is the "underdog" at all is baffling.

 

So, I agree with you Dmac.

 

 

Ok? Suh was an elite defensive tackle last year who lead the Lions' defensive line, which completely hid the fact that our DBs had guys playing considerable amount of time by the end of the year who weren't even on our roster at the start of the year.

 

'Good defensive tackle' doesn't win pro bowl, and 1st team all pro honors. 'Good defensive tackle' don't get double digit sacks in a season. 'Good defensive tackles' don't end up in the top 3 in there position in tackles, tackles for losses and sacks. Those are elite defensive tackles.

 

To say that Tramon Williams is better then Suh because he made key plays in key games completely throws away the fact that Suh anchored the only part of our defense that truly changed this defense from dead last in the NFL the previous year to 21 in the NFL. Your completely discounting the fact he anchored this Dline the entire season. And your also discounting the fact that our defense was the only reason why we won really all our games and kept us in most of them.

[RazorStar 4,025]

Better break this tie soon, topic closes in 95 minutes.

[Favre4Ever+ 4,476]

no. Actually, I don't catch your drift.

 

 

 

 

Ok? Suh was an elite defensive tackle last year who lead the Lions' defensive line, which completely hid the fact that our DBs had guys playing considerable amount of time by the end of the year who weren't even on our roster at the start of the year.

 

'Good defensive tackle' doesn't win pro bowl, and 1st team all pro honors. 'Good defensive tackle' don't get double digit sacks in a season. 'Good defensive tackles' don't end up in the top 3 in there position in tackles, tackles for losses and sacks. Those are elite defensive tackles.

 

To say that Tramon Williams is better then Suh because he made key plays in key games completely throws away the fact that Suh anchored the only part of our defense that truly changed this defense from dead last in the NFL the previous year to 21 in the NFL. Your completely discounting the fact he anchored this Dline the entire season. And your also discounting the fact that our defense was the only reason why we won really all our games and kept us in most of them.

 

ELITE? MUHAHAHA. That's one of the most absurd things I have heard on TGP, ever. Woah. Come on. He played very well as a rook, but ELITE. Do you realize who else you have on that D-Line? Cliff Avril... Corey Williams... Kyle Vanden Loss. Like wow... That's an all star cast right there. Who WOULDN'T succeed playing on a DLine as deep and talented as Detroit's?

 

And saying Tramon making key plays does not alone, make him better. But it is definitely a big part. The best players show up in the biggest moments on the biggest stages. Tramon Williams had just as much, maybe even more, of an impact on our SB run than Aaron himself.

 

And stating that Suh is elite because he made the pro bowl is hog wash. The pro bowl is a popularity contest. And Suh is one of the most over hyped players that came out of last years draft. Who talks about Gerald McCoy? Nobody. But he's a mega bad ass.

Edited April 15, 2011 by Favre4Ever

[RazorStar 4,025]

The results are in!

 

Aaron Rodgers 16

BJ Raji 0

 

Calvin Johnson 15

Greg Jennings 1

 

Adrian Peterson 14

Josh Sitton 2

 

Julius Peppers 15

Kevin Williams 1

 

Chad Greenway 13

Antoine Winfield 3

 

Clay Matthews 12

Lance Briggs 4

 

Brian Urlacher 10

Matt Forte 6

 

TIEBREAKER ROUND

Ndamukong Suh 8

Tramon Williams 8

 

So the bracket for next round is:

1. Aaron Rodgers

vs.

8./9. Ndamukong Suh/Tramon Williams

 

4. Julius Peppers

vs.

5. Chad Greenway

 

6. Clay Matthews

vs.

3. Adrian Peterson

 

7. Brian Urlacher

vs.

2. Calvin Johnson

 

Tiebreaker topic will be going up tomorrow, we have two matches so far that need it, both in the north. Make sure you vote for those when that topic comes up.

[DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241]

ELITE? MUHAHAHA. That's one of the most absurd things I have heard on TGP, ever. Woah. Come on. He played very well as a rook, but ELITE. Do you realize who else you have on that D-Line? Cliff Avril... Corey Williams... Kyle Vanden Loss. Like wow... That's an all star cast right there. Who WOULDN'T succeed playing on a DLine as deep and talented as Detroit's?

 

And saying Tramon making key plays does not alone, make him better. But it is definitely a big part. The best players show up in the biggest moments on the biggest stages. Tramon Williams had just as much, maybe even more, of an impact on our SB run than Aaron himself.

 

And stating that Suh is elite because he made the pro bowl is hog wash. The pro bowl is a popularity contest. And Suh is one of the most over hyped players that came out of last years draft. Who talks about Gerald McCoy? Nobody. But he's a mega bad ass.

 

I never said that he should be considered elite because he played in the pro bowl. I said it should be put into the equation when giving his performance last season a title as 'elite'.

 

Since 2005, there's been two, TWO DTs who have had double digit sacks (NFL.com)... And there numbers go as follow:

 

Warren Sapp (2006):

47 combined tks (15th amongst DTs/NT)

10 sacks (1st amongst DTs)

1 FF

 

Rod Coleman (2005):

40 combined tks (18th amongst DTs/NT)

10.5 sacks (1st amongst DTs)

4 FF

 

Ndamukong Suh (2010):

66 combined tks (3rd amongst DTs/NTs)

10 sacks (1st amongst DTs)

1 FF, 1 INT, 1 TD, 1 FR

and although I couldn't find the TFLs for the other two DTs, Suh had 12 which tied for 2nd amongst DTs only behind the guy that PFT loves to drool over.

 

If those numbers don't scream 'elite' performance for a DT in the NFL in one season, then idk what does. Those numbers show that he not only played well in the passing game, but also showed he played well in the running game, consistently making plays on the opponents side of the ball. And this was while everyone knew that he was the center of attention in our whole defense, every team game-planned for Suh before game-planning for any other defensive player on our team. If anything I would even argue Suh should be a higher seed.

 

KVB was out for almost the entire second half of the season including our last 6 games. Corey Williams half way through the season was splitting snaps almost 60-40 with our other emerging DT SLH. Suh played more snaps then any other lineman on our team, and his snaps even increased as the season progressed primarily the last 6 games... And not just at DT, at DE, NT, and even a stand up LB on some passing downs. It's pretty obvious that Suh was the anchor of our defense.

 

And using the whole playoff, and key game thing as a knock against Suh and a plus for Tramon isn't fair because as a whole, the Lions' team was no where near as good as the Packers' and we were in nowhere near the amount of tough games that the Packers were in, which means SUh wouldn't have that oppertunity. But if you want to talk about key situations, Suh had more then his fair share dating back to the first game where when the Bears were 5 yards from our end zone, they ran the ball THREE STRAIGHT times right at Suh (B gap on the weak side), and failed on all three attempts.

 

And overhyped player? Seriously? He deserved every bit of hype he received. There was no rookie defensive player who played as well as Suh did this past season from start to finish. None.

Edited April 15, 2011 by DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F

[Favre4Ever+ 4,476]

I never said that he should be considered elite because he played in the pro bowl. I said it should be put into the equation when giving his performance last season a title as 'elite'.

 

Since 2005, there's been two, TWO DTs who have had double digit sacks (NFL.com)... And there numbers go as follow:

 

Warren Sapp (2006):

47 combined tks (15th amongst DTs/NT)

10 sacks (1st amongst DTs)

1 FF

 

Rod Coleman (2005):

40 combined tks (18th amongst DTs/NT)

10.5 sacks (1st amongst DTs)

4 FF

 

Ndamukong Suh (2010):

66 combined tks (3rd amongst DTs/NTs)

10 sacks (1st amongst DTs)

1 FF, 1 INT, 1 TD, 1 FR

and although I couldn't find the TFLs for the other two DTs, Suh had 12 which tied for 2nd amongst DTs only behind the guy that PFT loves to drool over.

 

If those numbers don't scream 'elite' performance for a DT in the NFL in one season, then idk what does. Those numbers show that he not only played well in the passing game, but also showed he played well in the running game, consistently making plays on the opponents side of the ball. And this was while everyone knew that he was the center of attention in our whole defense, every team game-planned for Suh before game-planning for any other defensive player on our team. If anything I would even argue Suh should be a higher seed.

 

KVB was out for almost the entire second half of the season including our last 6 games. Corey Williams half way through the season was splitting snaps almost 60-40 with our other emerging DT SLH. Suh played more snaps then any other lineman on our team, and his snaps even increased as the season progressed primarily the last 6 games... And not just at DT, at DE, NT, and even a stand up LB on some passing downs. It's pretty obvious that Suh was the anchor of our defense.

 

And using the whole playoff, and key game thing as a knock against Suh and a plus for Tramon isn't fair because as a whole, the Lions' team was no where near as good as the Packers' and we were in nowhere near the amount of tough games that the Packers were in, which means SUh wouldn't have that oppertunity. But if you want to talk about key situations, Suh had more then his fair share dating back to the first game where when the Bears were 5 yards from our end zone, they ran the ball THREE STRAIGHT times right at Suh (B gap on the weak side), and failed on all three attempts.

 

And overhyped player? Seriously? He deserved every bit of hype he received. There was no rookie defensive player who played as well as Suh did this past season from start to finish. None.

 

 

Dude... just stop and think for 10 seconds. Mmkay. Breathe, and try following me here.

 

Suh played very well. But to call a guy elite after one season is absolutely absurd, especially when you have other guys around the league who have been clawing and scratching for the last 5 years trying to gain your respect.

 

Suh played better against the run in the last like 3 games of the season, sure. But through over half the season, teams WOULD run right at him. Because he would just use his strength to try to power up field. He would have little to no leverage in these situations and Guards would literally throw him to the side as their back gashes them for 5-10+ yards up the gut.

 

And I am glad you brought up that the Lions blow as a team. You know why? Because that actually HELPS Suh. He is on a DLine full of talent, but nobody cares about them. So when they are dominating and manhandling their assignments... It's just because Suh is awesome. Guys constantly have to account for EVERY SINGLE lineman on Detroit's front. So that leaves Suh 1-on-1 a lot more than they would like. And if they do decide to double him, Cliff Avril is gonna shit on your chest.

 

And you are giving him WAYYYY too much credit for being the "anchor" of a shitty DETROIT DEFENSE. If he was the anchor of the Super Bowl champs... Then maybe he wins. And replace Suh with a guy like Cullen Jenkins or Kevin Williams and they are going to have BETTER years than Little Boy Suh.

 

I mean, you are a Lions fan, and don't even give your DLine and Chris the props they deserve. Instead it's ALL about how awesome Suh is. How Suh is the reason the Lions win games. How Suh is the savior. Which is why I say he is over hyped. I'm not saying Suh is a terrible player, or that he doesn't deserve some hype. But I would be lead to believe Suh is Reggie White or Warren Sapp ALREADY. Hold the fucking phone, guy... Let's let him play a few seasons before we declare him King of Everything.

[DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241]

Dude... just stop and think for 10 seconds. Mmkay. Breathe, and try following me here.

 

Suh played very well. But to call a guy elite after one season is absolutely absurd, especially when you have other guys around the league who have been clawing and scratching for the last 5 years trying to gain your respect.

 

If those numbers don't scream 'elite' performance for a DT in the NFL in one season, then idk what does.

 

I have NEVER said that Suh is in the elite class, but I HAVE said that Suh last year played at an elite level. Which is what this poll is basing all of this off of... How the players performed last season.

 

Suh played better against the run in the last like 3 games of the season, sure. But through over half the season, teams WOULD run right at him. Because he would just use his strength to try to power up field. He would have little to no leverage in these situations and Guards would literally throw him to the side as their back gashes them for 5-10+ yards up the gut.

 

All your doing here is talking about flaws in his game, every player has flaws in there games. Especially when they are rookies. And actually, Suh did exactly what Shwartz defense tells him to do. He preaches penetration for the lineman, which is the reason why or Dlineman had so many encroachment and offsides so many times, even when our lineman knew it was a run. Jim Shwartz defense when he was in Tennessee was one where he always taught his linemen to run up the field (a-la ALbert Haynesworth) in order to force the running-backs to have to cut back around them, running backs gashing us for 5-10+ yards is not the Line's fault, and Suh's as much as it our LBs who aren't able to scrape over top. Yea there were times where he got washed out of his gap when he rushed up the field but that happens, what you can't ignore are his numbers. If you look back at our LB roster last year, outside of Levy, nobody else is stout against the run. That plays a huge role in this.

 

And I am glad you brought up that the Lions blow as a team. You know why? Because that actually HELPS Suh. He is on a DLine full of talent, but nobody cares about them. So when they are dominating and manhandling their assignments... It's just because Suh is awesome. Guys constantly have to account for EVERY SINGLE lineman on Detroit's front. So that leaves Suh 1-on-1 a lot more than they would like. And if they do decide to double him, Cliff Avril is gonna shit on your chest.

 

Lawrence Jackson and Turk McBride split time on the right D-End spot when KVB went down and both had 5+ sacks this past season. Turk started in 9 games in KC in one year, and played in 11 starting in 4 in Detroit the season prior to this and the most he had in a reg. season before this past one was 1.5. Lawrence Jackson started in 10 games in the year previous to this past one, and played in all 16 games, and never recorded a single sack. Neither of these guys were even considered pass rushing threats before coming to Detroit and the two of them amounted for a total of 11 sacks.

 

Not to take away from Cliff Avril, but he has ONE move, the speed rush, and he pulled that move all day every day against OT for the 2 previous seasons and they worked to only garner up 5 sacks in both of his two prior seasons before this past one. He played in 13 games this past season, and played in 13 games the season prior, he played in 15 games his rookie year. He started in 13 games this past season, 2 more then the season before that, and yet you saw an increase in his sacks playing the same position (DE) he had been playing the two previous years, the only difference is they put him to the left side, right next to Suh, Avril never even had to worry about a guard doubling up on him so all he ever did was the speed rush and he made plays.

 

KVB had started in all 16 games in 2009, he started in 11 in 2010, he only mustered 3 sacks in 09 starting all 16, and had 4 sacks this season while starting in 5 less games.

 

Corey Williams was at one point a threat as a pass rusher, but he doesn't have that same explosive step, and in the passing game, and in the running game, you could very well tell that watching him play. He and SLH and SLH both benefitted from Suh being there, especially in the passing game, because it was always in the mind of the center that the guard to his right might need help.

 

Im not trying to take away from any of our linemen, but Suh is no doubt what made our line go.

 

 

And you are giving him WAYYYY too much credit for being the "anchor" of a shitty DETROIT DEFENSE. If he was the anchor of the Super Bowl champs... Then maybe he wins. And replace Suh with a guy like Cullen Jenkins or Kevin Williams and they are going to have BETTER years than Little Boy Suh.

 

Um, Im giving him waay too much credit for being the 'anchor' for a defense going from being dead last in the NFL in 2009 to jumping up 11 spots to 21 in 2010? Im giving him too much credit for being the 'anchor' for a defense that went from being dead last in pass defense to 16th? Im giving him waay too much credit for being the 'anchor' for our defense almost doubling in sacks from one season to the next?

 

Because making that kinda jump in the NFL on defense is not a big deal at all.

 

I mean, you are a Lions fan, and don't even give your DLine and Chris the props they deserve. Instead it's ALL about how awesome Suh is. How Suh is the reason the Lions win games. How Suh is the savior. Which is why I say he is over hyped. I'm not saying Suh is a terrible player, or that he doesn't deserve some hype. But I would be lead to believe Suh is Reggie White or Warren Sapp ALREADY. Hold the fucking phone, guy... Let's let him play a few seasons before we declare him King of Everything.

 

I give credit where credit is due. Go back and look at all the threads where a linemen from the Lions has been mentioned and you'll see I give them credit for their play and I never bring up Suh. But your making it seem like they are the reason why Suh had so many 1 on 1 matchups, where really, most of the time it's the opposite.

[RazorStar 4,025]

Suh is down 3-1 in the tiebreaker topic, you might wanna get on that.

[Favre4Ever+ 4,476]

I have NEVER said that Suh is in the elite class, but I HAVE said that Suh last year played at an elite level. Which is what this poll is basing all of this off of... How the players performed last season.

We are voting for the better player. Tramon is a better player than Suh is. There really isn't any argument you can make for Suh that makes you sound sane. Tramon has been doing it longer (albeit, not much) and on a higher level. Winner, Winner.

 

All your doing here is talking about flaws in his game, every player has flaws in there games. Especially when they are rookies. And actually, Suh did exactly what Shwartz defense tells him to do. He preaches penetration for the lineman, which is the reason why or Dlineman had so many encroachment and offsides so many times, even when our lineman knew it was a run. Jim Shwartz defense when he was in Tennessee was one where he always taught his linemen to run up the field (a-la ALbert Haynesworth) in order to force the running-backs to have to cut back around them, running backs gashing us for 5-10+ yards is not the Line's fault, and Suh's as much as it our LBs who aren't able to scrape over top. Yea there were times where he got washed out of his gap when he rushed up the field but that happens, what you can't ignore are his numbers. If you look back at our LB roster last year, outside of Levy, nobody else is stout against the run. That plays a huge role in this.

 

But why do I have to "preach" his flaws? Because by your standards, he is a perfect player. So, I think everyone here needs to know what his flaws are to make an accurate judgment. You are taking one of his biggest flaws and actually making it sound like a good thing. lol

 

Lawrence Jackson and Turk McBride split time on the right D-End spot when KVB went down and both had 5+ sacks this past season. Turk started in 9 games in KC in one year, and played in 11 starting in 4 in Detroit the season prior to this and the most he had in a reg. season before this past one was 1.5. Lawrence Jackson started in 10 games in the year previous to this past one, and played in all 16 games, and never recorded a single sack. Neither of these guys were even considered pass rushing threats before coming to Detroit and the two of them amounted for a total of 11 sacks.

 

Quoting the sack totals of L-Jax and Turk actually hurt your case. If players of their caliber can rack up sacks in limited action, obviously Suh is going to be able to do the same thing, playing next to the same players, over an entire season. I don't think I need the help in my argument, but I appreciate it.

 

Not to take away from Cliff Avril, but he has ONE move, the speed rush, and he pulled that move all day every day against OT for the 2 previous seasons and they worked to only garner up 5 sacks in both of his two prior seasons before this past one. He played in 13 games this past season, and played in 13 games the season prior, he played in 15 games his rookie year. He started in 13 games this past season, 2 more then the season before that, and yet you saw an increase in his sacks playing the same position (DE) he had been playing the two previous years, the only difference is they put him to the left side, right next to Suh, Avril never even had to worry about a guard doubling up on him so all he ever did was the speed rush and he made plays.

But you are taking away from him. Suh has one effective move, but he's still a HOF DT. Avril had an outstanding 2010 season. And he has been growing and developing at a great pace since breaking into the league. Now... I am not saying Suh didn't help at all... Because every guy on your line helped out every other guy. They are ALL talented. You have the deepest DLine depth in arguably the entire league. But to say the ONLY thing that changed with Avril was Suh playing next to him is not giving Cliff the credit he deserves, nor granting him the props for the great strides he has made in developing as a DE in the National Football League. And that just isn't fair.

 

Corey Williams was at one point a threat as a pass rusher, but he doesn't have that same explosive step, and in the passing game, and in the running game, you could very well tell that watching him play. He and SLH and SLH both benefitted from Suh being there, especially in the passing game, because it was always in the mind of the center that the guard to his right might need help.

 

You sound like you are talking out of your ass. Corey Williams probably has the best first step on your Dline. Now.. that's a positive and a negative. It's good because he IS still a threat as a pass rusher on the interior. That's why you guys went and got him. Because of what he showed in Green Bay. And he DOES still have it. I only watched a handful of games, but the man is possessed on every single play. Now.. the bad side to that is that sometimes he gets antsy and will jump more than most guys... But the benefit far outweighs the penalties in the long run.

 

And I won't even mention Sammie, because he too, had an amazing season.

 

Im not trying to take away from any of our linemen, but Suh is no doubt what made our line go.

 

You aren't trying? You sure? You just ripped everyone on your line except Suh. I don't think you have said a single bad thing about Suh, ever. Your D Line is SO TALENTED. SO DEEP. Yet all you do is suck Suh's saggy cock. Come on man. Open your eyes and realize the immense skill you have in the trenches (on D, anyway).

 

Stop discounting these great seasons by Corey, Sammie, Cliff, Turk, etc etc. Your D Line doesn't consist of one guy. And you give credit where credit is due? Apparently not. Because I'm talking up the Lions more than you are. And stop pretending like I think Suh is some mega bust. He's an awesome player, who is still young an dhas some things to learn. He had an outstanding rookie campaign. I can't say enough good things about him... But I am still jacked into reality and don't live in Suhville, mmkay?

[DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241]

We are voting for the better player. Tramon is a better player than Suh is. There really isn't any argument you can make for Suh that makes you sound sane. Tramon has been doing it longer (albeit, not much) and on a higher level. Winner, Winner.

 

How is there no sane argument? If a player has only been in the league for one year, and that one year was pretty good when you compare his stats with some of the past DTs, what else can you base that player off of other then that one year? And if we can make an argument that Suh's success was too dependent on his teamnates, why can't we make an even more valid argument that Tramon Williams' 'elite' play has something to do with the fact the Packers had a top 5 pass rushing defense last year?

 

 

 

But why do I have to "preach" his flaws? Because by your standards, he is a perfect player. So, I think everyone here needs to know what his flaws are to make an accurate judgment. You are taking one of his biggest flaws and actually making it sound like a good thing. lol

 

Please point out where exactly I said that Suh's game is perfect? because you keep saying I do, and I seriously have no clue where it's coming from. I even said in my last post that he has flaws, the point of that post was that every player has flaw, even Manning, and Brady, what you can't ignore are the numbers he put up.

 

And how am I turning one of his biggest flaws into a strength? All I said is that when you have a defensive scheme like Shwartz which emphasizes rushing up the field aggressively with almost no sense of gap responsibilities, it will always leave them exposed to getting washed out of there gap responsibilities in the running game at times, and that's a FACT. And if that's the case with just regular DTs in a scheme like that, it's accented when you have a guy like SUh who's nature is to just try to power his way through anyone that comes in his way. Although it led to him getting washed out often, it also led to him being 2nd in the league in TFLs amongst DTs. It's obviously a past of his game he needs to work on, but it's not like it's such a big of a flaw to where he still couldn't get a big number of TFLs.

 

Coordinator Jim Schwartz is known for his aggressive, free-wheeling approach, but he can dial it back a notch if the defensive line plays as well as it did a year ago. The strength of the Titans' 4-3 scheme is DT Albert Haynesworth and DE Kyle Vanden Bosch, whose upfield pressure protects a mediocre secondary.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/preview08/news/story?id=3559627

 

 

Quoting the sack totals of L-Jax and Turk actually hurt your case. If players of their caliber can rack up sacks in limited action, obviously Suh is going to be able to do the same thing, playing next to the same players, over an entire season. I don't think I need the help in my argument, but I appreciate it.

 

No, it isn't hurting my argument, it just proves it even more. Although we had guys who played exceptionally well, when those guys who played exceptionally well in the pass rushing department, and have NEVER been known for there ability for being good pass rushers, one would think the bulk of there credit should go to the guys in the middle who are eating up the double teams, primarily the one and the only guy on the roster in the middle of our who finished the year with double digit sacks.

 

 

But you are taking away from him. Suh has one effective move, but he's still a HOF DT. Avril had an outstanding 2010 season. And he has been growing and developing at a great pace since breaking into the league. Now... I am not saying Suh didn't help at all... Because every guy on your line helped out every other guy. They are ALL talented. You have the deepest DLine depth in arguably the entire league. But to say the ONLY thing that changed with Avril was Suh playing next to him is not giving Cliff the credit he deserves, nor granting him the props for the great strides he has made in developing as a DE in the National Football League. And that just isn't fair.

 

You aren't trying? You sure? You just ripped everyone on your line except Suh. I don't think you have said a single bad thing about Suh, ever. Your D Line is SO TALENTED. SO DEEP. Yet all you do is suck Suh's saggy cock. Come on man. Open your eyes and realize the immense skill you have in the trenches (on D, anyway).

 

Once again I never said Suh is the only person who should receive credit for our DLine's great play. That is not what I am getting at, and your so fixed on that your ignoring and shrugging off everything else I am saying. Im saying that when you have a line full of payers who played exceptionally well, the guy who should receive the most of the credit should, or would be the one who led that line in sacks, tackles and TFLs... Especially when that guy played more snaps then anyone else on that, especially when that guy played in one of the two inside gaps that our dline take up, considering the fact that EVERY OL is taught that you ALWAYS protect the middle before the outside. Common sense.

 

Stop discounting these great seasons by Corey, Sammie, Cliff, Turk, etc etc. Your D Line doesn't consist of one guy. And you give credit where credit is due? Apparently not. Because I'm talking up the Lions more than you are. And stop pretending like I think Suh is some mega bust. He's an awesome player, who is still young an dhas some things to learn. He had an outstanding rookie campaign. I can't say enough good things about him... But I am still jacked into reality and don't live in Suhville, mmkay?

 

Live in Suhville? Really? No matter how much i've talked up Suh..

1. I have NEVER said Suh is the best DT in even the NFC North, only thing I HAVE said is that he played the best of all the DTs in the NFC North this past season.

 

2. Go back and look at sb's fantasy draft and you'll see how highly I am on Suh, not only did I not take him, but I went on to say he isn't elite because of his one year, I know what it takes to be an elite player in the NFL.

 

3. I am not some homer SUh dick rider, I love Suh, I am one of his biggest fans, but I am also a realist and I know how good SUh is, I have seen every Lions game, I have seen the good and bad from Suh. This topic is about Suh, not how deep our dline is, I know what it takes to have a successful Dline,just as much as I know who deserves how much credit for the line's overall success. If we were talking about a different lineman, I wouldn't bring up Suh, as I've always done in the past.

 

4. I have never, not one, said in any way shape or form that I believe you believe Suh is a mega bust. For whatever reason you take everything I say to some extreme level, everything

[Packers Dynasty 2010 116]

Alright, Suh is a beast and will be a pain in the rear end of the Pack for years to come but Tramon Williams' play was on par with the elite CBs, such as Aso and Revis. He was a complete shutdown corner that allows Capers to move Woodson all around and get Shields in to cover the other side of the field. Tramon Williams constantly made key plays to win important games and rarely got beat or allowed a TD.

[Favre4Ever+ 4,476]

How is there no sane argument? If a player has only been in the league for one year, and that one year was pretty good when you compare his stats with some of the past DTs, what else can you base that player off of other then that one year? And if we can make an argument that Suh's success was too dependent on his teamnates, why can't we make an even more valid argument that Tramon Williams' 'elite' play has something to do with the fact the Packers had a top 5 pass rushing defense last year?

 

*deep breathe*

 

Football, is a team sport. Every player relies on every other player in some way. Just the way the game is. Tramon, Suh, Claymaker, Ware, Revis... etc etc...

 

*exhale*

 

Please point out where exactly I said that Suh's game is perfect? because you keep saying I do, and I seriously have no clue where it's coming from. I even said in my last post that he has flaws, the point of that post was that every player has flaw, even Manning, and Brady, what you can't ignore are the numbers he put up.

Yet the flaw I did point out, gets twisted into a positive. lol

 

 

And how am I turning one of his biggest flaws into a strength? All I said is that when you have a defensive scheme like Shwartz which emphasizes rushing up the field aggressively with almost no sense of gap responsibilities, it will always leave them exposed to getting washed out of there gap responsibilities in the running game at times, and that's a FACT. And if that's the case with just regular DTs in a scheme like that, it's accented when you have a guy like SUh who's nature is to just try to power his way through anyone that comes in his way. Although it led to him getting washed out often, it also led to him being 2nd in the league in TFLs amongst DTs. It's obviously a past of his game he needs to work on, but it's not like it's such a big of a flaw to where he still couldn't get a big number of TFLs.

So... the scheme Suh plays in allows him to be one dimensional. Which is a good thing, because he's doing what he's told. But Cliff Avril has one move and it's seen as a negative. Gotcha. Completely makes sense. Sorry I brought it up.

 

No, it isn't hurting my argument, it just proves it even more. Although we had guys who played exceptionally well, when those guys who played exceptionally well in the pass rushing department, and have NEVER been known for there ability for being good pass rushers, one would think the bulk of there credit should go to the guys in the middle who are eating up the double teams, primarily the one and the only guy on the roster in the middle of our who finished the year with double digit sacks.

 

You bring in all of these talented guys... All of which who have really good to great years... And we give the credit to the one guy. Ya... That makes sense too. Completely. Again, sorry for bringing up such a trivial fact that your DLine is bad ass. I won't make that mistake again.

 

Once again I never said Suh is the only person who should receive credit for our DLine's great play. That is not what I am getting at, and your so fixed on that your ignoring and shrugging off everything else I am saying. Im saying that when you have a line full of payers who played exceptionally well, the guy who should receive the most of the credit should, or would be the one who led that line in sacks, tackles and TFLs... Especially when that guy played more snaps then anyone else on that, especially when that guy played in one of the two inside gaps that our dline take up, considering the fact that EVERY OL is taught that you ALWAYS protect the middle before the outside. Common sense.

Ya... You didn't say Suh is the only one who receives credit. But you talk him up like he's the only reason those other guys had productive years. You dissed like every single DLineman on your depth chart not named Suh in your last post.

 

Live in Suhville? Really? No matter how much i've talked up Suh..

1. I have NEVER said Suh is the best DT in even the NFC North, only thing I HAVE said is that he played the best of all the DTs in the NFC North this past season.

 

2. Go back and look at sb's fantasy draft and you'll see how highly I am on Suh, not only did I not take him, but I went on to say he isn't elite because of his one year, I know what it takes to be an elite player in the NFL.

 

3. I am not some homer SUh dick rider, I love Suh, I am one of his biggest fans, but I am also a realist and I know how good SUh is, I have seen every Lions game, I have seen the good and bad from Suh. This topic is about Suh, not how deep our dline is, I know what it takes to have a successful Dline,just as much as I know who deserves how much credit for the line's overall success. If we were talking about a different lineman, I wouldn't bring up Suh, as I've always done in the past.

 

4. I have never, not one, said in any way shape or form that I believe you believe Suh is a mega bust. For whatever reason you take everything I say to some extreme level, everything

 

1. Fair enough... But guess what. We are voting on THE BEST PLAYER. One good year for Suh doesn't make him the best player, or the best DT in the division. So, instead of defending your vote for him over a superior player... Be grateful he made it this far.

 

2. That's amazing. Then why are you arguing with me? I'm saying Suh isn't elite. I'm saying Tramon is. Why would you voluntarily choose the worse player in a poll trying to determine the best player.

 

3. No. This topic is about the best player in the NFL. Specifically in the NFC North. And Suh is eliminated. Again, be happy that you had a player make it this far. Let's talk about how awesome Megatron is, instead. Hopefully that's something you would agree with me on.

 

4. Yet you keep repeating that he had a good rookie season... Which I have said over and over... and over. lol. We can stop saying what a good season he had. I think everyone is aware.

[DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241]

Alright, Suh is a beast and will be a pain in the rear end of the Pack for years to come but Tramon Williams' play was on par with the elite CBs, such as Aso and Revis. He was a complete shutdown corner that allows Capers to move Woodson all around and get Shields in to cover the other side of the field. Tramon Williams constantly made key plays to win important games and rarely got beat or allowed a TD.

*deep breathe*

 

Football, is a team sport. Every player relies on every other player in some way. Just the way the game is. Tramon, Suh, Claymaker, Ware, Revis... etc etc...

 

*exhale*

 

Ok? So in the same respect, Suh was making plays on all facets of our defensive line, which allowed Shwartz to move around all our linemen to put them in better position to make plays. And it’s not like our line just played a little better then it did the previous year, our line alone put up more sacks then our whole team did the previous year. And it’s not like our DBs blancketed receivers, our two starters at CB and our starter at SS at the end of the season weren’t even on our roster to begin the season.

 

But on the flip side, Tramon Williams plays ‘elite’, but even though we can’t seem to ignore the fact that Suh had the line with the most depth at every position on the line to help him bolster his stats and play at an elite level… We can completely ignore the fact that the Packers’ defense totaled up 47 sacks, and QBs most of the time when playing the Packers were more worried about getting sacked or getting hit by Clay Matthew and Co. when releasing the ball then they were throwing a pick to Tramon Williams?

 

So... the scheme Suh plays in allows him to be one dimensional. Which is a good thing, because he's doing what he's told. But Cliff Avril has one move and it's seen as a negative. Gotcha. Completely makes sense. Sorry I brought it up.

 

Once again your taking everything im saying and throwing your own little twists to it. I NEVER bought up Cliff Avril speed rush as a flaw, all I ever said was that in order for a guy who uses a speed rush to effective, there has to be a guy inside who can take up the guard who might kick out with the tackle to allow the tackle to overextend because the tackle knows if the speed rusher tries to cut in at the last second then the guard has him… Suh usually took up a guard, and a center in the passing game, if not, a guard or a HB coming out of the back, and sometimes, all three, one would think that a speed rusher can always get a favorable matchup when an inside guy is drawing up that much attention.

 

1. Fair enough... But guess what. We are voting on THE BEST PLAYER. One good year for Suh doesn't make him the best player, or the best DT in the division. So, instead of defending your vote for him over a superior player... Be grateful he made it this far.

 

2. That's amazing. Then why are you arguing with me? I'm saying Suh isn't elite. I'm saying Tramon is. Why would you voluntarily choose the worse player in a poll trying to determine the best player.

 

3. No. This topic is about the best player in the NFL. Specifically in the NFC North. And Suh is eliminated. Again, be happy that you had a player make it this far. Let's talk about how awesome Megatron is, instead. Hopefully that's something you would agree with me on.

 

4. Yet you keep repeating that he had a good rookie season... Which I have said over and over... and over. lol. We can stop saying what a good season he had. I think everyone is aware.

 

And this is where my other problem is with the whole thought process that put him to the next level. Everyone is saying that because Tramon has been doing it for longer – more then one season – that automatically makes him the better player. Which isn’t fair, because the guy who he’s against has only been in the league for ONE year, so shouldn’t you base how good he’s been based on that ONE year? And if you wanna compare based solely on stats because we are trying to figure out who the better player is, shouldn’t a player coming off a year where he was the biggest concern for every OC we went against, and still put up the kinda numbers in both the running and passing game as Suh did get the nod over a player who wasn’t even #1 on the other team’s concern of who to account for?