Jason Collins Comes Out

[Favre4Ever+ 4,476]

If you guys really think that most people are okay with homosexuality, you must not live in a conservative area or know many conservatives. There are literally five pages of posts in a thread defending Wallace's comments on Steeler Nation, because most of that idiotic fanbase is populated by out of touch conservative nutjobs. And they live in the north, mostly, rather than the south where it's much worse.

 

It's a lot more accepted today than in the past, but to say that the majority of people are okay with it is ludicrous. If that were true we'd have legal gay marriage in our country. A lot of the media today leans to the left and the rest at least attempt to be politically correct. Most people in the south and the midwest are against homosexuality. I see people look at it with disdain here in Nebraska almost daily.

 

 

As far as I am concerned, I figured we were talking about sports and the really bad comparison Zack made to Jackie Robinson.

 

I do think more people are fine with it (that doesn't mean they agree with it) than those who would go out and picket events of gay players or throw bricks through the gay players house windows.. I don't think gays have their own restrooms, their own restaurants, their own drinking fountains, etc etc etc. It's not the same. It just isn't. Hate still exists. It always will. Always. But eventually we get to the point where those are in the minority, and I feel as if we are pretty close to that if we haven't reached it already.

 

There is a big difference, between those who disagree with choices gay men and women make and those who will act on their hate. I don't like singling people out here, but I think of like Dmac. He has made it well known he doesn't agree with homosexuality, but I don't ever envision Dmac becoming violent or getting incredibly stupid over it.

 

Yes, there are groups of Americans who do fall into that other, more hostile category. But they are far outnumbered from my perspective.

 

I don't expect tens of thousands of people to march on the Wizards arena (permitted he comes back, obviously) against Jason Collins. I don't expect politicians or the NBA to form a Homo league where all players that come out get regulated to.

 

Hate will exist forever, and if your goal is to extinguish it completely... Where players like this don't receive a single piece of hate-mail or don't hear a single hurtful word hurled their way... I am afraid you are living in a fantasy world.

 

Ideologically, that'd be fantastic. But just isn't realistic.

[Zack_of_Steel+ 3,014]

As far as I am concerned, I figured we were talking about sports and the really bad comparison Zack made to Jackie Robinson.

 

I do think more people are fine with it (that doesn't mean they agree with it) than those who would go out and picket events of gay players or throw bricks through the gay players house windows.. I don't think gays have their own restrooms, their own restaurants, their own drinking fountains, etc etc etc. It's not the same. It just isn't. Hate still exists. It always will. Always. But eventually we get to the point where those are in the minority, and I feel as if we are pretty close to that if we haven't reached it already.

 

There is a big difference, between those who disagree with choices gay men and women make and those who will act on their hate. I don't like singling people out here, but I think of like Dmac. He has made it well known he doesn't agree with homosexuality, but I don't ever envision Dmac becoming violent or getting incredibly stupid over it.

 

Yes, there are groups of Americans who do fall into that other, more hostile category. But they are far outnumbered from my perspective.

 

I don't expect tens of thousands of people to march on the Wizards arena (permitted he comes back, obviously) against Jason Collins. I don't expect politicians or the NBA to form a Homo league where all players that come out get regulated to.

 

Hate will exist forever, and if your goal is to extinguish it completely... Where players like this don't receive a single piece of hate-mail or don't hear a single hurtful word hurled their way... I am afraid you are living in a fantasy world.

 

Ideologically, that'd be fantastic. But just isn't realistic.

 

You really love to engage in hyperbole and make things about what they're not. Nobody here is comparing the situation to white on black racism pre-1970's but you. I've already stated that that was not the comparison I was making with the Jackie Robinson analogy, yet you continue to argue as if that's what anyone here is saying.

 

Obviously most people aren't at the level of hate that they'd picket and resort to violence. Like I said in my last post, what is being compared is their push toward complete acceptance of homosexuality, to the point where only people of radical mind will hear about someone's homosexuality and give it a second thought.

 

Jackie got the ball rolling through professional sports earlier in the transition from hate to acceptance than Jason has, but again, nobody is arguing timeframe or severity of hate during the initial event. We are arguing that he is significant in moving toward the same end that Jackie's career aided in, but with racism against blacks.

[Guest Phailadelphia]

I think Zack's comparison of Jason Collins to Jackie Robinson is a fair one, and it's one I've seen made frequently since his coming out. It's not about eliminating hate or anything of that nature. Rather, it's about letting people be who they really are. People like Jason Collins should not have to hide their true identity out of fear from social repercussions, shunning, etc. That's why the Jackie Robinson comparison works. Black people can't change the fact that they're black yet were discriminated for it. Substitute "gays" for "blacks" and you have the same situation.

[Favre4Ever+ 4,476]

You really love to engage in hyperbole and make things about what they're not. Nobody here is comparing the situation to white on black racism pre-1970's but you. I've already stated that that was not the comparison I was making with the Jackie Robinson analogy, yet you continue to argue as if that's what anyone here is saying.

 

Obviously most people aren't at the level of hate that they'd picket and resort to violence. Like I said in my last post, what is being compared is their push toward complete acceptance of homosexuality, to the point where only people of radical mind will hear about someone's homosexuality and give it a second thought.

 

Jackie got the ball rolling through professional sports earlier in the transition from hate to acceptance than Jason has, but again, nobody is arguing timeframe or severity of hate during the initial event. We are arguing that he is significant in moving toward the same end that Jackie's career aided in, but with racism against blacks.

 

Firstly, your last post wasn't comparing their push towards equality. You are talking about the severity of hate around the country.

If you guys really think that most people are okay with homosexuality, you must not live in a conservative area or know many conservatives. There are literally five pages of posts in a thread defending Wallace's comments on Steeler Nation, because most of that idiotic fanbase is populated by out of touch conservative nutjobs. And they live in the north, mostly, rather than the south where it's much worse.

 

It's a lot more accepted today than in the past, but to say that the majority of people are okay with it is ludicrous. If that were true we'd have legal gay marriage in our country. A lot of the media today leans to the left and the rest at least attempt to be politically correct. Most people in the south and the midwest are against homosexuality. I see people look at it with disdain here in Nebraska almost daily.

 

Secondly, you are really good at exactly what you accuse others of. Because my point was nothing as you just explained it. I used examples form the Robinson era, figuring most people here would understand them and be able see the flaws in your original point that Jason would have the same impact on gays as Jackie did blacks. Naturally, I wasn't proposing tens of thousands of people would actually march on the wizards arena... lol

 

You can't say certain groups of people still hate without talking about severity of hate. That's impossible. The only way to do that would be to say all people hate the same amount, which would be idiotic. Yes, the things that happen today that would be considered hate would be much different than they would back in the time of Robinson, I highly doubt Jackie dealt with many douchebags on Twitter.

 

Next, comparing both as far as impact goes is completely underrating what Jackie did and overrating what Jason did. Saying Jackie merely "got the ball rolling" is a disservice to his fight and battle as professional baseball player in white America.

 

Furthermore, this:

what is being compared is their push toward complete acceptance of homosexuality, to the point where only people of radical mind will hear about someone's homosexuality and give it a second thought.

 

Is moronic, as we haven't even achieved that... Nationally or globally as far as race goes. Racism (not just towards blacks, mind you) still exists. It isn't just those of extremely radical mind who poo-poo those of other skin colors. We will never achieve that level of equality. Ever. With all of the stereotypes and prejudices, those second thoughts will live on FOREVER. The world of skipping fields of sunflowers and tulips you dream of does not exist, I am sad to inform you.

 

Jason Collins will not, EVER.. Have the same impact on the gay community in sports as Jackie did the black community in sports. Ever. Horrible comparison at every single turn except "First" which as I stated earlier might even be cheating somewhat.. As being the first active player to come out but never play in a game is so much much different than being the first active player to come out and actually deal with the locker room. Actually deal with traveling. Actually deal with the media as a full time player.

 

Which is exactly why I said other gay players who come after him (Jason) will have a far greater impact. A statement you conveniently ignored as you would rather focus on insults, ignoring my point, and trying your hardest to spin my words into something you can argue against because quite frankly... You have no foundation to build an argument against what I am truly saying.

[blotsfan 2,112]

New rule in life. Comparisons between situations can not be made unless all circumstances surrounding them are 100% identical.

 

This is a stupid argument over semantics. Maybe it's not the exact same as Robinson, but it's not difficult to see the parallels. You guys all try to call me contrarian, but there is no bigger waste of print than to argue over minor semantics while missing the big picture. We get it. You want to show thar youre smarter than everyone else who is celebrating a major milestone in sports. Well that's not how it comes across. It makes you all out to just look like assholes.

 

And to be clear, this is directed at many of you. Not just Favre.

[Favre4Ever+ 4,476]

I think Zack's comparison of Jason Collins to Jackie Robinson is a fair one, and it's one I've seen made frequently since his coming out. It's not about eliminating hate or anything of that nature. Rather, it's about letting people be who they really are. People like Jason Collins should not have to hide their true identity out of fear from social repercussions, shunning, etc. That's why the Jackie Robinson comparison works. Black people can't change the fact that they're black yet were discriminated for it. Substitute "gays" for "blacks" and you have the same situation.

 

I am not exactly sure if that's the comparison that Zack is making. Firstly, I personally don't see those two situations as the same. Yes, gays have to practically hide from who they really are to avoid this hate.

 

I disagree that the same could be said for blacks. I don't think they were trying or were forced to hide who they really were. They were who they were, and it just took them getting on a bigger stage to allow people to see that they (blacks) were actually exactly like us. There was no hiding, no secrecy...

 

Both situations are all about changing the minds of others, which is what I figured Zack was talking about as far as impact goes. But I could definitely be wrong there. I will just go off the assumption I am incorrect and you are correct that Zack feels that the "hiding" aspect is the comparison there and not the actual changing of everyone's minds just to be safe.

 

Either way, I would disagree as stated before.. Because another player will come out, who knows when, with an impact 10x greater than that of Jason Collins -- a person with whom I have the greatest respect for.

[JetsFan4Life 542]

Personally I don't see the comparison between Collins and Robinson at all. I see where some could compare the two but to me they are two entirely different situations. Collins came out and said that he was gay. It's not like Robinson came out and said "I'm black, in case you guys didn't know." Wasn't exactly a secret...

 

Doesn't change that what Collins has done is a great stride for Lesbian and Gay rights moving forward, in the sporting world and the world in general. Sports really is a microcosm of society so this can only help.

Edited May 1, 2013 by JetsFan4Life

[Favre4Ever+ 4,476]

New rule in life. Comparisons between situations can not be made unless all circumstances surrounding them are 100% identical.

 

This is a stupid argument over semantics. Maybe it's not the exact same as Robinson, but it's not difficult to see the parallels. You guys all try to call me contrarian, but there is no bigger waste of print than to argue over minor semantics while missing the big picture. We get it. You want to show thar youre smarter than everyone else who is celebrating a major milestone in sports. Well that's not how it comes across. It makes you all out to just look like assholes.

 

And to be clear, this is directed at many of you. Not just Favre.

 

Realizing your last sentence. It isn't just semantics, I agree that the last 2-3 posts by Zack and I got off topic slightly because he didn't understand what I was saying, however... To hit the main and only point I've been making this whole time.

 

I don't think the parallels between Jackie and Jason are as strong as people are making it seem. Not even close, to be honest. Again and to clarify, I am not saying none exist. Just that they aren't as significant, as impactful, or as strong as the media and others make it out to be.

 

Those "parallels" have been blown way out of proportion by the media-driven world that is only looking for its next story.

 

EDIT: I didn't mean to neg you, I wanted to + you, and instead have +d two of your other posts to make up for it.

 

EDIT II: I also keep repeating myself that I still think VERY highly of Jason Collins. There is no denying what he did was very forthcoming, brave, and beneficial to others who follow him. Even though my opinion is what it is, I do not say this to degrade or make light of what Jason has done. That isn't the point.

Edited May 1, 2013 by Favre4Ever

[Zack_of_Steel+ 3,014]

New rule in life. Comparisons between situations can not be made unless all circumstances surrounding them are 100% identical.

 

This is a stupid argument over semantics. Maybe it's not the exact same as Robinson, but it's not difficult to see the parallels. You guys all try to call me contrarian, but there is no bigger waste of print than to argue over minor semantics while missing the big picture. We get it. You want to show thar youre smarter than everyone else who is celebrating a major milestone in sports. Well that's not how it comes across. It makes you all out to just look like assholes.

 

And to be clear, this is directed at many of you. Not just Favre.

 

Someone gets it, though I'm probably one of said assholes.

 

I was about to say that there's no use responding to JD because all of his little "nitpick just to be contrary in order to arouse an argument" threads go the same way.

 

-Person x states what their argument is

-JD questions it, pretending to be innocent and amiable in nature at first, but then turns to simply telling Person x that his argument is something entirely different

-Person x restates his argument and refutes JD's claims

-JD continues to argue the point he conjured out of thin air and condescends to the opposition by telling them that they themselves do not know what their own argument is despite explicitly stating it twice while outlining exactly what it is not.

-JD then either continues to post until he is thoroughly refuted and fails to reply to the final post or he waits it out until Person x quits so that he might claim victory.

[NY Diehard 26]

I think its much easier to come out in this society then if someone would have back then. I still think its going to take a more high profile guy to come out, to make the flood gates open. Not sure why these guys are so afraid to come out, most people won't care. You never gonna live in a judgement free society anyways, idiots like Mike Wallace will always exist.

 

Why is Mike Wallace an idiot for having a negative opinion of homosexuality?

 

The way he put it was dumb, sure, but I don't see why that makes him an idiot.

[Bucman 891]

Why is Mike Wallace an idiot for having a negative opinion of homosexuality?

 

The way he put it was dumb, sure, but I don't see why that makes him an idiot.

Don't see how its so hard to understand. In fact, you answered it with your last statement.

[Maverick 791]

For someone who believes you're born into heterosexuality, Wallace's comments look ignorant, idiotic, and just plain dumb.

 

Now if he believes it's a choice, he's just making a statement many heterosexual men would say. Granted, it was a rough approach and not the most educated thought in the world, but what do you expect from an athlete with social media at their disposal?

 

It's tough because so much depends on whether you believe heterosexuality is a choice or something you're born with.

[blotsfan 2,112]

Thankfully it's pretty easy since the belief that homosexuality is a choice is dumb.

[BwareDWare94 723]

Why is Mike Wallace an idiot for having a negative opinion of homosexuality?

 

The way he put it was dumb, sure, but I don't see why that makes him an idiot.

 

When something is asinine, it's asinine.

 

You can oppose the practice all you want, but you don't get to be hateful and spout about it through Twitter.

[BwareDWare94 723]

There's this window that's wide open right now; it's the window that we must cast the idea that "homosexuality is a choice" out of.

 

Can we drop that now? Nobody would choose to deal with the hatred and bigotry.

[Turry 755]

But is it really that necessary to tell the whole world that, wouldn't just telling your family and friends be enough?

What if someone said that they sleep with prostitutes or whatever, does the whole world really need to know that, or is that really only between that person and whoever may be directly involved?

 

Maybe for regular people like you and me just having the acceptance of your family and friends would be enough. But lets say you have a job as a professional athlete where you spend pretty much most of your time with your teammates than your family. Why should one have to hide who they are and be uncomfortable doing so? Also lmao what a terrible comparison.

Edited May 1, 2013 by monstersofthemidway

[NY Diehard 26]

When something is asinine, it's asinine.

 

You can oppose the practice all you want, but you don't get to be hateful and spout about it through Twitter.

 

Yeah, you do get to do that, because it's his freedom of speech to say whatever he wants on Twitter.

 

He also wasn't hateful towards homosexuals, his next tweet, which most news places leave out of their articles, clearly show he wasn't being hateful at all.

[blotsfan 2,112]

People really don't understand how freedom of speech works.

Freedom of speech means the government is not allowed to throw Wallace into jail for what he said.

It certainly doesn't mean he cant be criticized for saying something stupid.

[Sarge+ 3,436]

Mike Wallace is an idiot. Period.

[NY Diehard 26]

People really don't understand how freedom of speech works.

Freedom of speech means the government is not allowed to throw Wallace into jail for what he said.

It certainly doesn't mean he cant be criticized for saying something stupid.

 

I was taking it that Bware was saying he literally wasn't allowed to do that, not do it without criticism.

[BwareDWare94 723]

I was taking it that Bware was saying he literally wasn't allowed to do that, not do it without criticism.

 

Say and not expect to be told he's a prick, yes. Say whatever the fuck you want.

[Bucman 891]

lmao @ Wallace not be hating towards gays with his statement, are you fucking kidding me?

[Thanatos 2,847]

Thankfully it's pretty easy since the belief that homosexuality is a choice is dumb.

 

The idea that your genes 100% make you homosexual or heterosexual is dumb.

 

They predispose you towards it, but there is still choice involved.

 

(I trust my opinion on gay marriage and homosexuality has been made abundantly clear, so let me re-iterate only that the fact that I do think its a choice in 90% of cases doesn't matter one whit in whether or not the government can regulate it.)

[blotsfan 2,112]

The idea that your genes 100% make you homosexual or heterosexual is dumb.

 

They predispose you towards it, but there is still choice involved.

I will never understand why people don't get the difference between "not 100% set by genetics" and "a choice." Factors in genetics and environmental factors can lead to it, but people do not just up and decide "I wanna be attracted to men."

[RANGA+ 1,210]

So much angst in this thread...