BwareDWare94 723 Posted June 30, 2014 (edited) Tired of hearing he never has enough help? LeBron is one of the only players in league history to lead his team to a Finals victory over a superior team in last year's MIA/SA matchup. The only other player I can think of off the top of my head? Chauncey Billups--not exactly on a LeBron's level but it happened. LeBron has been to the Finals with the inferior team 4 out of 5 times. It's a miracle he's got two rings instead of one. My God, stop hating on him for reasons other than basketball. Edited June 30, 2014 by BwareDWare94 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blotsfan 2,112 Posted June 30, 2014 The 2nd rockets championship was a huge upset as well Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blotsfan 2,112 Posted June 30, 2014 Also, just throwing this out there, but LeBron and Wilt are tied in championships and wilt Definitley had his share of finals failures. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ATL_Predator+ 1,196 Posted June 30, 2014 Just saying if Lebron wants to be the GOAT he should probably not be demanding 26 milly a year because he's the best player on the planet. People constantly bitch and moan about Lebron not having any help..and so does he in a discreet way...yet...how are you supposed to get help when your salary alone is half the teams fucking cap? To me, Lebron may say he wants to win, but his actions..and what he does this off-season will speak volumes for his legacy, and no he's not even in the top 5 GOAT as we speak. He has a long way to go, and a lot to prove still. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blotsfan 2,112 Posted June 30, 2014 Jordan was making $30 million with the bulls 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ATL_Predator+ 1,196 Posted June 30, 2014 30 milly a year for 2 years with Chicago after he had already one 4 titles and was in the process of back to back to back Championships 1984-85 Chicago Bulls NBA $550,000 1985-86 Chicago Bulls NBA $630,000 1986-87 Chicago Bulls NBA *$737,500 1987-88 Chicago Bulls NBA $845,000 1988-89 Chicago Bulls NBA $2,000,000 1989-90 Chicago Bulls NBA *$2,250,000 1990-91 Chicago Bulls NBA $2,500,000 1991-92 Chicago Bulls NBA $3,250,000 1992-93 Chicago Bulls NBA $4,000,000 1993-94 Chicago Bulls NBA $4,000,000 1994-95 Chicago Bulls NBA $3,850,000 1995-96 Chicago Bulls NBA $3,850,000 1996-97 Chicago Bulls NBA $30,140,000 1997-98 Chicago Bulls NBA $33,140,000 2001-02 Washington Wizards NBA $1,000,000 2002-03 Washington Wizards NBA $1,030,000 Career Lebron has won 2 titles...and should be thankful that he even has multiple if it wasn't for Ray Allen bailing him out last year. I love Lebron, but...he still has some more to prove, and if he wants to prove himself he needs to sacrifice because he ain't doing it alone in today's NBA. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
southgadawg 52 Posted June 30, 2014 I have been watching pro basketball for a LONG time (mid 70's) and I will say that imho it only boils down to either MJ or Wilt. KAJ was a great player don't get me wrong but he was never able to play to the level of MJ. I just can't see LeBron as even the equal of Kareem yet (although he is close) but that is just my opinion. Different periods totally as well as game style. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Milla4Prez63 678 Posted June 30, 2014 lol at BWare telling me to stop "hating" on LeBron for reasons other than basketball, when my entire post was nothing but basketball reasons why I don't have him in the GOAT conversation....YET. He's a great player but I can't put him on Jordan or Russell's level when he's got more losses in the Finals than rings. He was a Ray Allen miracle 3 from being 1-4 in the Finals too. He's a great player, but it feels like there is more excuses than rings right now. 6 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241 Posted June 30, 2014 Really wouldn't put what happened in the finals this year on Lebron... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
seanbrock 1,684 Posted June 30, 2014 Also, just throwing this out there, but LeBron and Wilt are tied in championships and wilt Definitley had his share of finals failures. I think it's safe to say it wasn't because he choked. His finals losses were against a team with a roster full of hall of famers and arguably the greatest coach of all time. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Milla4Prez63 678 Posted June 30, 2014 I'm not blaming LeBron this Finals loss btw, but when you are discussing a potential GOAT. The standard has to be incredibly high. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BwareDWare94 723 Posted June 30, 2014 I'm not blaming LeBron this Finals loss btw, but when you are discussing a potential GOAT. The standard has to be incredibly high. I know, but what was he supposed to do during his Finals losses? You can will your team to a victory against a superior team here and there but it's not going to be 4 times in 7 game series. There was nothing he could do in any of them. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blotsfan 2,112 Posted June 30, 2014 I think it's safe to say it wasn't because he choked. His finals losses were against a team with a roster full of hall of famers and arguably the greatest coach of all time. As opposed to the Spurs who have 3 hall of famers (and maybe Kawai) plus Popovich. I'm not disagreeing with you btw. Just pointing that out to people that think Wilt is up there but that LeBron isn't on that level. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zack_of_Steel+ 3,014 Posted June 30, 2014 (edited) He lost to an inferior Mavericks team, lol. And let's not act like the Spurs of the last two years are the Early 2000's Spurs. Edited June 30, 2014 by Zack_of_Steel 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blotsfan 2,112 Posted June 30, 2014 Yeah he was awful in the Mavs series. It happens. But id say that while the Spurs are different, they might be better than in the early 2000s. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BwareDWare94 723 Posted June 30, 2014 He lost to an inferior Mavericks team, lol. And let's not act like the Spurs of the last two years are the Early 2000's Spurs. How was that Mavs team inferior? They had unmatched chemistry, the perfect defensive center to deter James and Wade from the rim, and a coach who uses Spoelstra's gameplans in the shitter. Realize that Rick Carlisle took an 8 seed to the playoffs and yet it was he who came closest to knocking off this Spurs team. Never, ever, ever downplay an elite coach's impact. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blotsfan 2,112 Posted June 30, 2014 Rick Carlisle is a great coach, but the Heat had no buisness losing that series. I don't care what your defensive strategy is. LeBron has no excuse to be below 10 points in multiple games. Even as a LeBron fan, that series is Definitley a black mark on his career 7 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AL_Royalty 489 Posted July 1, 2014 (edited) So your argument is basically "due to the era he was in, we cant ever know or even hypothesize about how he would have done in the league as it is today, therefore he cannot be the GOAT." That's some messed up logic there, bro. I'm going based off of videos and information that I have watched, interviews with people like Bill Russell and Kareem Abdul-Jabaar. Jordan's greatest season for FG% was .539. Wilt's AVERAGE was .540. Wilt Chamberlain is the only center in the history of the NBA to lead the league in assists. He never, not once, fouled out in his entire career. There are numerous other things I can pull out. I don't think the question can ever be definitively answered. The video I posted has every point of Wilt's in his entire career that is on film, which is only 2% of his total shots. I am reacting against you acting like the conversation is open and shut, and Jordan is the GOAT of all time period. My original argument was that a guy doesn't get to be crowned "GOAT" just because he's bigger and stronger than everyone else, which your own video took every opportunity to remind everyone of. The dude made Shaq look like a little kid at the age of, what, 60? He was huge, and on top of all that he was also a supremely gifted athlete. Of course he was gonna do work. Hypothesize all you want though, because that's EXACTLY what I've been doing when weighing Wilt against the field. Do you honestly think that he would come anywhere close to scoring 100 points in a game today? Honestly? I don't. As far as his lofty shot percentage, you are aware of the reasoning behind the term "high-percentage shot," correct? He was a center, and out of all of the mind blowing footage you've provided of a monstrous center dunking a basketball and blocking shots (who knew?) there were maybe a handful of shots not taken from in or around the paint. It was mostly dunks and blocks, and many of his "blocks" were goaltending. Now don't go all crazy and act like I'm calling the guy a scrub or something like that. I'm not. I'm saying that he doesn't get the nod as GOAT. Jordan does. If you're going to use the FG pct. of a center who shoots from 5 foot and in as ammo to pursued me otherwise, try harder. DeAndre Jordan has a CAREER FG PCT. of .652!!! STOP THE PRESSES!!! GOAT!!! Relevant Video But yeah, Chamberlain never played against anyone his own size. Note that this was late in Wilt's career: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2U4JSrpO78 First off, kudos to you for finding footage of an all-time great playing well. Didn't see that coming. Seriously though, When did I ever say he didn't play against anyone his own size? (I'm assuming you're referring to height, because KAJ was clearly in a different weight class.) I said that on average, guys in the league were a lot smaller then than they are now. There were 9 teams, and do you wanna guess how many of them had legit 7 footers? How about 6'8"-6'11" guys who can play the three spot? People are going to laugh at BWare's comment about LeBron, but I'll say this. I don't think he's there yet, but his career isn't over. He continues to get better and if he can develop a consistent jump shot he would be absolutely unguardable and he's already an elite defensive player. LeBron with a little bit better jump shot would stack up against anyone in NBA history imo People are laughing at Bware's comment because it's funny. No real mystery there. Yeah, Lebron has the potential, but this isn't the "Who Might, Maybe, One Day, Possibly be the GOAT if he Wins a Couple More Rings and Stays Healthy" thread. Tired of hearing he never has enough help? LeBron is one of the only players in league history to lead his team to a Finals victory over a superior team in last year's MIA/SA matchup. The only other player I can think of off the top of my head? Chauncey Billups--not exactly on a LeBron's level but it happened. LeBron has been to the Finals with the inferior team 4 out of 5 times. It's a miracle he's got two rings instead of THREE.** ^^^^^^^ My God, stop hating on him for reasons other than basketball. *FIxed* You always talk about the better team not winning until it doesn't suit your argument. The Heat had no business loosing to the Mavs the way they did. Sure, Spoel got outcoached like some kind of rookie head coach, which we all know wasn't the case... err... wait. Still, the talent level alone on that team was enough. It's a cool story for Dirk and whatnot, but it never should have happened. The next year, they did win because age hadn't fully caught up to them. The year after that it did, and they still managed to pull one out just due letting experience and talent take them the extra step. They got annihilated this past season because, well, father time always wins in the end. The first two seasons in MIA he most certainly did have all the help he needed though. One could even argue that he had it the next year, too. This past season, the order was just too tall, but still, it's not non-basketball related reasons that people are "hating" in this thread. His name doesn't belong anywhere in the thing, and that's all ballin'. Jordan was making $30 million with the bulls I was gonna say the same thing. lol Edited July 1, 2014 by Charles-in-Charge 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
56AceInDaPlace 110 Posted July 2, 2014 (edited) As a Lakers fan i would still give GOAT to Jordan. The reason being is this stat Finals record 6-0 6 finals MVPs Thats FLAWLESS. He had the killer instinct. If you needed to win he found a way. Not too mention his 41 PPG finals vs the Suns is still the record for most PPG ina Finals series. Until a superstar can go 7-0 in finals with 7 MVPs, theres no debate not even close IMO. The others can fall in line of 2, 3 and so on and it wouldnt be disrespectful to anyone else. Kareem, Bird, Russell, Chamberlain etc. Now as for Kobe i def think hes top 10 all time. He wont surpass Jordan ever, but i do believe Kobe is the best 1 on 1 player of ALL TIME. 1 on 1 i think he would beat Jordan. Edited July 2, 2014 by 56AceInDaPlace Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sarge+ 3,436 Posted July 2, 2014 No, Kobe would not beat MJ one on one. Nobody ever took guys 1 on 1 to the rim as great as Jordan. Plus Kobe stole 80% of Jordan's moves. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
seanbrock 1,684 Posted July 2, 2014 No, Kobe would not beat MJ one on one. Nobody ever took guys 1 on 1 to the rim as great as Jordan. Plus Kobe stole 80% of Jordan's moves. Yeah I think Jordan would get Kobe 1 on 1. He's longer, has bigger hands, he's stronger and his career shooting% is much better. I mean, if they played 10 times though, Kobe might beat him once or twice. If We're talking both guys in their primes lets not forget Kobe dropped 80 in a game. If he got hot who knows? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sarge+ 3,436 Posted July 2, 2014 I think Kobe would be totally overwhelmed physically by Jordan. I honestly think he would be helpless most of the time. Kobe was a great player, no doubt about it. It's not really a knock against him. That's just how good Jordan was IMO. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
56AceInDaPlace 110 Posted July 2, 2014 Yeah he stole his moves but Kobe has a shot Jordan doesnt and never has like Kobe. Kobe was a all star defender himself dont forget that. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sarge+ 3,436 Posted July 2, 2014 Michael Jordan is the best mid-range shooter ever, so I don't get where you think Kobe is a better shooter. He has a slightly higher career 3 point %, but let's be honest, how many three point shots would be taken in a one on one game between these two guys? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CampinWithaMissingPerson 2,025 Posted July 3, 2014 I still don't understand how people try to rationalize ranking players when they played in different eras, with different rules, against different opponents, when basically everything is different. There's no similar variable for most of these guys. When they do play in the same game they're always at different stages of their career as one is older and the other younger, etc. It's pointless in my opinion. There's never a GOAT. There never will be. But these guys are some of the best basketball players of all time and they were the best in their given eras. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites