Is Feminism Based in Perception or Reality?

[seanbrock 1,684]

 

Wave 2.

 

On the topic of masculinity--it doesn't even exist. Neither does femininity. They're just social constructs.

Highly debatable. I would want to see some serious evidence that they're not at least somewhat based on biology.

[Sarge+ 3,436]

There are some differences between men and women that are absolutely natural and not constructed by perception... such as men being, on average, physically superior to women by a mile. Deeper voices, facial hair, men on average hold good looks into much later ages, etc...

 

But if you mean stuff like boys should prefer blue over pink, then yea... some things are taught due to expectations.

[RazorStar 4,025]

The good looks thing is societally constructed. Most people are butt ugly for all time, IMO.

[DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241]

 

I really don't think women are being excluded from engineering majors. Most of the academically smart girls I know chose to go down a pre-med path of some sorts, a few of them went into engineering (and are excelling - they are already TAs in Honors Engineering courses here), and the rest of the girls I know went to other colleges to major in things like sports journalism, education, and early childhood development. I'm not criticizing those majors, but the pay difference between those and medical/engineering tracks is tremendous.

 

I've heard the argument that when women begin to move into different fields, then the field becomes devalued. I don't actually have anything to refute it, so I just kind of hesitantly acknowledge it as an argument. If anyone has any proof of this being true, I'm more than willing to read it.

 

Women by and large have the same opportunities men do. Obviously, there is still sexual harassment and discrimination in the workforce, but I don't think it's as common as feminists who argue it's the reason women avoid these majors would lead everyone to think.

 

Nope. The simple fact that there is sexual harassment and discrimination in the work force means they do not have the same opportunities. I'm not going to turn this into a "source war", but Harvard has done a lot of research on the topic of women and opportunities.

 

 

Women leave, or never even start, entire professions because of harassment. Discrimination is directly responsible for why when a women and man both start working at the same time, one is more likely to move up while the other stays stagnant (another big reason they leave).

 

Discrimination is the reason why if (using my own profession as an example) a male supervisor may chose a man to handle a job over a woman who is equally qualified.

 

Discrimination is directly responsible for why in some situation if their are only two spots available, the male is most likely to get the two spots over a woman if they have an equal resume, etc.

 

The fact that women. at least in the US, don't get the extended paid leave to take care of their kids right after pregnancy, means they don't get the same opportunities.

 

Additionally, from the time they are infants, women are systematically, through media, sometimes their parents, and even school, taught gender roles that discourages them from pursuing certain professions (engineering, etc) and acting a certain way (ambitious). This should also be considered when talking about equal opportunities.

 

It doesn't matter how you slice it, women and men don't have the same opportunities. It's better then in the past- obviously- but it's not at a point where anyone can really say the opportunities are equal.

[OSUViking 505]

 

 

 

Additionally, from the time they are infants, women are systematically, through media, sometimes their parents, and even school, taught gender roles that discourages them from pursuing certain professions (engineering, etc) and acting a certain way (ambitious). This should also be considered when talking about equal opportunities.

 

It doesn't matter how you slice it, women and men don't have the same opportunities. It's better then in the past- obviously- but it's not at a point where anyone can really say the opportunities are equal.

I'll address the other part of your post later, but I'm not denying discrimination exists.

 

But what society teaches isnt an excuse for what someone will do with their life. These are fully functioning and independent people, and if they can't make the conscious choice to make decisions independent of what people tell them to that's an issue that they need to handle. People have control over just about everything they choose to do in life*.

 

*This is of course with respect to the US.

Edited September 18, 2015 by OSUViking

[Sarge+ 3,436]

But what society teaches isnt an excuse for what someone will do with their life. These are fully functioning and independent people, and if they can't make the conscious choice to make decisions independent of what people tell them to that's an issue that they need to handle. People have control over just about everything they choose to do in life.

 

I have one word for you.

 

 

Media.

[BwareDWare94 723]

I'll address the other part of your post later, but I'm not denying discrimination exists.

 

But what society teaches isnt an excuse for what someone will do with their life. These are fully functioning and independent people, and if they can't make the conscious choice to make decisions independent of what people tell them to that's an issue that they need to handle. People have control over just about everything they choose to do in life*.

 

*This is of course with respect to the US.

 

You are talking about white males, not all people. The opportunities are not the same for other ethnicity and women.

 

Gay and trans people have it even worse.

Edited September 18, 2015 by BwareDWare94

[OSUViking 505]

 

You are talking about white males, not all people. The opportunities are not the same for other ethnicity and women.

 

Gay and trans people have it even worse.

 

One of the women my dad worked with at Nautilus Hyosung - North America was transsexual. She was a man at one point, and had the complete transformation into physically being a woman. A quick check on NHA - NA's page says she is the COO. Take that for what you will, but transsexual individuals can find success in the industry - just like anyone else.

 

https://nhausa.com/index.php/en/features/nautilus-hyosung-leadership-team < Her name is Nancy Daniels, I believe.

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/nautilus-hyosung-appoints-nancy-daniels-as-evp-and-coo-300111640.html < She was also recently appointed as head of the North American branch of Hyosung.

 

http://www.inc.com/graham-winfrey/the-highest-paid-female-executive-in-the-us-is-a-transgender-ceo.html

 

The highest paid female in 2013 was transgender.

 

Every. Single. Person has the ability to make their own choices in this country. Will those choices always turn out the way they want them to? Absolutely not. A black man can choose to life a crime free life, and still suffer from police brutality. It's a shitty world. But people have the power to make their own choices, they just have to be able to handle the consequences. There is nothing holding women back from taking engineering jobs or majors. Colleges (especially OSU) literally go out of their way to make those opportunities available to women/minorities.

Edited September 18, 2015 by OSUViking

[OSUViking 505]

 

I have one word for you.

 

 

Media.

 

And my response is the same: people should still make independent decisions. This could all be because of my inability to empathize with the situations others are in, but I just don't understand how people can just accept messages from others without analyzing them and determining if they are right. It's a problem if people accept what the media puts out, but it's a problem that they have to solve on their own.

[PackIsBack 124]

After attending an all women's college during my undergraduate studies, feminism is about reaching equality between men and women. There is a very ingrained social construct in our culture about what a man and a woman is supposed to be (what specific roles they play in the household, job positions that are predominantly for one gender or the other, etc.). In my opinion, feminism is about having an honest conversation about why those roles have been predetermined and how they can be challenged to open up equal opportunities for all. Women have come a long way throughout history in terms of earning the right to vote, and as times (and economic stature) have changed, have been able to be breadwinners for their households as well. Personally, I don't find anything wrong with continuing to push the line a little bit more to see what other gender gaps remain and seeing what can be done about them.

[Cherry 1,302]

Everyone has the same ability to make their own choices, but that doesn't mean they'll all be given equal opportunity. Media also plays a large role. Women are expected to be stay at home wives and men are expected to be breadwinners. Regardless of what an individual wants to be there are already set ideas of what they SHOULD be.

[oochymp 2,393]

 

And my response is the same: people should still make independent decisions.

on its face that sounds great, but you can't ignore the external pressures people face with every decision they make whether it comes from family, friends, or society at large, everyone gets told what to do, consciously or subconsciously, and to just say people should be able to ignore all of that seems rather short-sighted to me

Edited September 18, 2015 by oochymp

[Sarge+ 3,436]

^ exactly that

[OSUViking 505]

on its face that sounds great, but you can't ignore the external pressures people face with every decision they make whether it comes from family, friends, or society at large, everyone gets told what to do, consciously or subconsciously, and to just say people should be able to ignore all of that seems rather short-sighted to me

 

Let me rephrase then, because I realize that there are other influences. People need to be able to handle what influences their lives, analyze it, and determine if it's good or bad. Basically, if you have a bunch of friends telling you to skip schoolwork when you have a huge test coming up, people should be able to say, "Hey, that's a really fucking stupid idea. I'm going to study for this test, because skipping out on that will fuck me over." I've never liked deflecting blame to friends and family or something as big as society. If women are really as strong and independent as feminist rhetoric says they are, they should be more than capable of analyzing what is a good and bad influence and making the right decision (for them) accordingly.

[OSUViking 505]

After attending an all women's college during my undergraduate studies, feminism is about reaching equality between men and women. There is a very ingrained social construct in our culture about what a man and a woman is supposed to be (what specific roles they play in the household, job positions that are predominantly for one gender or the other, etc.). In my opinion, feminism is about having an honest conversation about why those roles have been predetermined and how they can be challenged to open up equal opportunities for all. Women have come a long way throughout history in terms of earning the right to vote, and as times (and economic stature) have changed, have been able to be breadwinners for their households as well. Personally, I don't find anything wrong with continuing to push the line a little bit more to see what other gender gaps remain and seeing what can be done about them.

 

Right, in that sense I'm also technically a feminist. There shouldn't be any divide between a man and a woman in terms of opportunity (or between religious beliefs/sexual identification/etc) in a society of sentient beings of our level of intelligence. The gripe I have with modern feminism is that, from my own experience with feminists (i.e., high school girls and a few college girls in my classes), the blame for everything is deflected solely onto men and some facts are even taken completely out of context in order to push their agenda.

 

I really hope that no one has taken "OSUViking hates women" from this whole thread. I really don't, I just get kind of militant when I discuss stuff like this because I've pretty much exclusively encountered feminists who don't take my opinion on social issues seriously because I'm a white male.

[blotsfan 2,112]

Every. Single. Person has the ability to make their own choices in this country. Will those choices always turn out the way they want them to? Absolutely not. A black man can choose to life a crime free life, and still suffer from police brutality. It's a shitty world. But people have the power to make their own choices, they just have to be able to handle the consequences. There is nothing holding women back from taking engineering jobs or majors. Colleges (especially OSU) literally go out of their way to make those opportunities available to women/minorities.

 

So you've already admitted white privilege exists. Is it so hard to imagine that male privilege exists too?

[OSUViking 505]

 

So you've already admitted white privilege exists. Is it so hard to imagine that male privilege exists too?

 

When women have just as much political (read: voting) power as men, just as much (if not more) economic power as men, and are also on average more educated than men, I have a hard time believing a true male privilege exists. None of the same can be said of minority ethnic groups, where it's pretty much undeniable that whites will have an easier time getting by in life.

 

EDIT: I don't think either side here is going to get anywhere with this argument, and I don't want to continue this if you all will just think I'm a dick. Agree to disagree?

Edited September 19, 2015 by OSUViking

[Favre4Ever+ 4,476]

Chances are Blots already thinks you're a dick, so may as well press on.

[blotsfan 2,112]

Just because someone is misinformed doesn't necessarily mean they're a dick.

[RazorStar 4,025]

I believe in male and female privilege, because everyone is a bunch of assholes. Gender bias is a thing that has basically existed since mythological times. Pandora opened the box, Eve ate from the tree of knowledge, blah blah blah ruining life forever, that sort of bullshit. The ideals of feminism are important, and something all people should want so they don't feel pigeonholed to be whatever society tells them they have to be. The reality of feminism leads to the degradation of males and help fuel the males rights movement, which is nothing but a minefield if you have ever accidentally stumbled into a gamergate conversation, or just about anything involving women on the internet.

 

Basically in short, people are bad at treating other people with respect because other people are bad at treating them with respect, and it's a cycle that feeds off itself.

 

If we're keeping score, there are probably a small group of men who could be considered to be winning, the rich and elite. Everyone else is losing, and that's the most important battle men and women need to wage together. >_>

[Sarge+ 3,436]

I believe in male and female privilege, because everyone is a bunch of assholes. Gender bias is a thing that has basically existed since mythological times. Pandora opened the box, Eve ate from the tree of knowledge, blah blah blah ruining life forever, that sort of bullshit. The ideals of feminism are important, and something all people should want so they don't feel pigeonholed to be whatever society tells them they have to be. The reality of feminism leads to the degradation of males and help fuel the males rights movement, which is nothing but a minefield if you have ever accidentally stumbled into a gamergate conversation, or just about anything involving women on the internet.

 

Basically in short, people are bad at treating other people with respect because other people are bad at treating them with respect, and it's a cycle that feeds off itself.

 

If we're keeping score, there are probably a small group of men who could be considered to be winning, the rich and elite. Everyone else is losing, and that's the most important battle men and women need to wage together. >_>

 

Bernie would be proud.