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BwareDWare94

Ben Shapiro

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It's dangerous. You start giving trans people respect, and before you know it you start treating everyone with respect.

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Respect through ignoring reality...that sounds like enabling to me.

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He just wants to do his best to look like the rational guy who uses science and facts, even if it's at the expense of feelings. You can still disagree and call people by their pronouns.

 

 

The point is why does everyone else have to curtail to how someone else feels? This is not just with trans people, but in general. How come I can't feel a certain way without someone telling me I am a terrible person. If I feel gender dysphoria is a mental illness and I do not want to perpetuate that, how come people get to act like they are the moral majority? As long as I dont go out of my way to treat them poorly, what does anybody care how I feel about it? I can think it is silly, and not agree with transitioning anytime for any reason, and still not treat them badly. It is not impossible.

 

It is like religious people who think abortion is terrible, why do they have to feel like shit for that? As long as they are not throwing bricks outside planned parenthood at people, who cares? Why do they have to be evil?

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The point is why does everyone else have to curtail to how someone else feels?

Because being nice to people is a good thing. They're living the life that makes them happy, why should you treat them poorly for it?

 

This is not just with trans people, but in general. How come I can't feel a certain way without someone telling me I am a terrible person. If I feel gender dysphoria is a mental illness and I do not want to perpetuate that, how come people get to act like they are the moral majority? As long as I dont go out of my way to treat them poorly, what does anybody care how I feel about it? I can think it is silly, and not agree with transitioning anytime for any reason, and still not treat them badly. It is not impossible.

 

But you do. You support institutionalized discrimination against transgender people in the military. If you respect peoples' gender identity, no one really gives a shit if you silently disagree. It'd be nice if you didn't but its not the end of the world.

 

It is like religious people who think abortion is terrible, why do they have to feel like shit for that? As long as they are not throwing bricks outside planned parenthood at people, who cares? Why do they have to be evil?

If the religious right quietly disagreed with abortion, no one would have a problem with them. Instead, they do what they can to make it nearly impossible for anyone to get, as well as shame the people that do get them.

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As I mentioned before, I just don't see the point in making such a huge deal out of calling someone by he or she. I am pretty politically incorrect. Safe spaces annoy the shit out of me and the world is too buys acting offended. but at the same time.. that just seems like the right thing to do, doesn't it, at least regarding this particular issue.

I mean... Let's say I agree, and call the entire transgender population mentally ill and filled with delusion. I still don't see the point of going out of your way to try and use the incorrect pronoun.

I mean, Bware is over here calling it "dangerous" and I am not so sure I agree. Again, pretending like i agree that it's merely delusion... What does it hurt you, society, or whoever else to call a guy who feels like a woman "she"? I literally see no downside to that.

I am not saying you have to agree with it or support them. If calling a trans person by their appropriate pronoun was infringing on other rights, then maybe I could get on board. But it's literally nothing more or less than a matter of just being kind to somebody else.

I was at a restaurant the other day with a friend of mine. I needed help with something, so got up from the table and found someone. It wasn't my server and I had no idea who it was, but after they helped me, I said "Thank you, sir!".. Went back to my table not too far away and my buddy tells me that he thinks that was a female. I honestly couldn't tell, but I felt awful at the thought of even potentially saying something like that to someone. Idk if that person was trans or whatever, but.. it's just a human decency, I think. That person shouldn't feel awful about who they are (or again, if you agree with Shapiro, who people merely think they are) because I don't agree with them.

Although to counter my own point... I don't get into all the other pronouns out there. I don't have time to learn and ask every single person which of 50 pronouns they are okay with me using for them. I'd forget anyway and end up accidentally offending everyone. Oh well. lol

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^I'm not going to go out of my way to be hurtful toward somebody in public. I'm not saying we should use the correct pronoun just because it's correct. Read what Ngata said about quiet disagreement.

 

And blots, you know better. Plenty of people peacefully oppose abortion but liberals paint them with the same brush as the violent radicals

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Because being nice to people is a good thing. They're living the life that makes them happy, why should you treat them poorly for it?

 

 

But you do. You support institutionalized discrimination against transgender people in the military. If you respect peoples' gender identity, no one really gives a shit if you silently disagree. It'd be nice if you didn't but its not the end of the world.

 

If the religious right quietly disagreed with abortion, no one would have a problem with them. Instead, they do what they can to make it nearly impossible for anyone to get, as well as shame the people that do get them.

 

I am not saying you should treat them poorly. I am saying why is it my (not me in particular, but the person who disagrees) opinion that makes me an asshole ? What if I say all of the people enabling this are assholes? I mean there is no real discussion to be had on which is right and wrong because doctors and psychologists are all over the map on this.

 

What I am saying is this, we should all be able to have our own opinions on this and they should all be respected and considered without being discarded because they hurt someones feelings. Yes being nice is a good thing, but lets not act like all trans people are nice to whatever they call us straight white people when we are taking a break from being Satan. I am not usually aggressive off the cuff anymore, I used to be, but these days the one thing that pisses me off to no end, especially with you, is that you think you have the only correct viewpoint. I forget the exact wording but about a week ago when someone disagreed and you said it made them an asshole fore disagreeing or whatever and Sarge called you out. That is what makes up the bulk of motivation for your resistance.

 

As a personal example with this whole trans in the military thing. My brother who is gay (quite an uppity little prick too) and I were having this discussion and he starts attacking me personally because I dont agree. Like bringing up how he thinks all military people are stupid who have no other options and then being a condescending little douche. He thinks he was being cool, because he knows damn well if it were not for all the space separating us I would have beat him like a drum for talking to me that way. That right there is what creates opposition to all of this shit. I have nothing against trans people as human beings, as long as they are respectful of my rights to an opinion as well. When I say I dont want them in the military I am talking DURING transition only, if they want to join before or after that whatevs. That said when people choose to be an abrasive dick and such a repulsive pussy about all of it, there is something that disgusts me about the alt left who think I should cater to everyone and check my priveleges, people like Aids skrillex, carl the cuck and so on. Those people genuinely disgust me as human beings, more than any trans person.

 

I call Bruce, Bruce because I think he is a piece of shit, self-loathing, attention seeking moron who once he transitioned nobody help him to the carpet for his misdeeds. I think he is a shit human being and I refuse to validate him as a man/woman/human being.

 

Your last sentence encapsulates my very problem with liberals and why I cant identify as one until shit changes. Why is the only opposition allowed, have to be silent? If liberals had a great substantiated arguments that were definitive instead of,"Well, the feelings of others....blah blah blah" we could get somewhere. That said if you disagree with an alt left person they insult you and say you have no right to your opinion because you are a straight white male. Why do the people who are against abortion, have to be against it quietly ? Why do I have to be against tran people transitioning in the military DURING their time, quietly? Why cant you support them quietly? See what an odd double standard you try to make people live by ? Only your opinion can be voiced because it is the "right" one.

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As I mentioned before, I just don't see the point in making such a huge deal out of calling someone by he or she. I am pretty politically incorrect. Safe spaces annoy the shit out of me and the world is too buys acting offended. but at the same time.. that just seems like the right thing to do, doesn't it, at least regarding this particular issue.

 

I mean... Let's say I agree, and call the entire transgender population mentally ill and filled with delusion. I still don't see the point of going out of your way to try and use the incorrect pronoun.

 

I mean, Bware is over here calling it "dangerous" and I am not so sure I agree. Again, pretending like i agree that it's merely delusion... What does it hurt you, society, or whoever else to call a guy who feels like a woman "she"? I literally see no downside to that.

 

I am not saying you have to agree with it or support them. If calling a trans person by their appropriate pronoun was infringing on other rights, then maybe I could get on board. But it's literally nothing more or less than a matter of just being kind to somebody else.

 

I was at a restaurant the other day with a friend of mine. I needed help with something, so got up from the table and found someone. It wasn't my server and I had no idea who it was, but after they helped me, I said "Thank you, sir!".. Went back to my table not too far away and my buddy tells me that he thinks that was a female. I honestly couldn't tell, but I felt awful at the thought of even potentially saying something like that to someone. Idk if that person was trans or whatever, but.. it's just a human decency, I think. That person shouldn't feel awful about who they are (or again, if you agree with Shapiro, who people merely think they are) because I don't agree with them.

 

Although to counter my own point... I don't get into all the other pronouns out there. I don't have time to learn and ask every single person which of 50 pronouns they are okay with me using for them. I'd forget anyway and end up accidentally offending everyone. Oh well. lol

 

It really isn't a big deal. Bruce is the only one I refuse to validate. That said I think a lot of it is if you are a manly woman, or a feminine looking dude and I am not sure which end of the spectrum you are heading, don't get pissed if I don't know what to call you. You CHOSE this, not me. So if I cant tell which way you are heading don't get huffy.

 

Oh and the one that drives me bat shit. I am not using plurals to identify a singular person. That is dumb as fuck. I mean really fucking dumb. Whoever created that shit needs to be punched in the dick/pussy.

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Oh and the one that drives me bat shit. I am not using plurals to identify a singular person. That is dumb as fuck. I mean really fucking dumb. Whoever created that shit needs to be punched in the dick/pussy.

 

Are you referring to their/them/etc when traditionally people would say his/him/etc by default?

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^I'm not going to go out of my way to be hurtful toward somebody in public. I'm not saying we should use the correct pronoun just because it's correct. Read what Ngata said about quiet disagreement.

 

You said calling people by their chosen pronouns is dangerous. That's incredibly hurtful to trans people. You know this. That means you have no plausible deniability. If you intentionally misgender trans people, you are hurting them. Either own it or (hopefully) stop.

 

And blots, you know better. Plenty of people peacefully oppose abortion but liberals paint them with the same brush as the violent radicals

 

The people that peacefully oppose abortions still vote in other people on the basis of banning it.

 

 

I am not saying you should treat them poorly. I am saying why is it my (not me in particular, but the person who disagrees) opinion that makes me an asshole ? What if I say all of the people enabling this are assholes? I mean there is no real discussion to be had on which is right and wrong because doctors and psychologists are all over the map on this.

 

One side's opinion is "I have the right to exist" and the other side is "no you don't." Those aren't equal. Would you say that during the civil rights protests of the 60s "everyone just had their own opinion about things and they should be respected? There was plenty of pseudoscience justifying why black people were inferior back then.

 

What I am saying is this, we should all be able to have our own opinions on this and they should all be respected and considered without being discarded because they hurt someones feelings. Yes being nice is a good thing, but lets not act like all trans people are nice to whatever they call us straight white people when we are taking a break from being Satan. I am not usually aggressive off the cuff anymore, I used to be, but these days the one thing that pisses me off to no end, especially with you, is that you think you have the only correct viewpoint. I forget the exact wording but about a week ago when someone disagreed and you said it made them an asshole fore disagreeing or whatever and Sarge called you out. That is what makes up the bulk of motivation for your resistance.

The difference between trans people and cis people being jerks is that cis people are the ones that created and benefit from power structures in society. If a trans person says that they hate cis people, they're a jerk. If a cis person hates trans people, trans people get ostracized from society at best, killed at worst.

 

Also, my "resistance" is the traditional conservative dogma that has existed for decades. Conservatives don't want people like me to be quiet so they can start considering trans rights. They want people like me to be quiet so they can ignore the terrible things they do without having to change their behavior.

 

 

As a personal example with this whole trans in the military thing. My brother who is gay (quite an uppity little prick too) and I were having this discussion and he starts attacking me personally because I dont agree. Like bringing up how he thinks all military people are stupid who have no other options and then being a condescending little douche. He thinks he was being cool, because he knows damn well if it were not for all the space separating us I would have beat him like a drum for talking to me that way. That right there is what creates opposition to all of this shit. I have nothing against trans people as human beings, as long as they are respectful of my rights to an opinion as well. When I say I dont want them in the military I am talking DURING transition only, if they want to join before or after that whatevs. That said when people choose to be an abrasive dick and such a repulsive pussy about all of it, there is something that disgusts me about the alt left who think I should cater to everyone and check my priveleges, people like Aids skrillex, carl the cuck and so on. Those people genuinely disgust me as human beings, more than any trans person.

And when your opinions are such that "this job should be barred from you because of who you are," they shouldn't have to respect that opinion. Transition surgery is a legitimate medical procedure backed by the medical community. It should be open to military personnel the same way any other procedure is. And I don't think you understand what "check your privilege" means. Its not "you're white so you're a bad person." It means you should acknowledge the advantages you get from your race/sex/orientation etc and try to help make it better for those less privileged than you.

 

I call Bruce, Bruce because I think he is a piece of shit, self-loathing, attention seeking moron who once he transitioned nobody help him to the carpet for his misdeeds. I think he is a shit human being and I refuse to validate him as a man/woman/human being.

 

 

As I've said before, I agree that Caitlyn Jenner is a piece of shit. However, I've seen no evidence that her transition is fake. There were plenty of rumors of her being trans well before the car crash.

 

Your last sentence encapsulates my very problem with liberals and why I cant identify as one until shit changes. Why is the only opposition allowed, have to be silent? If liberals had a great substantiated arguments that were definitive instead of,"Well, the feelings of others....blah blah blah" we could get somewhere. That said if you disagree with an alt left person they insult you and say you have no right to your opinion because you are a straight white male. Why do the people who are against abortion, have to be against it quietly ? Why do I have to be against tran people transitioning in the military DURING their time, quietly? Why cant you support them quietly? See what an odd double standard you try to make people live by ? Only your opinion can be voiced because it is the "right" one.

 

 

Because one side is let people go about their lives. The other is about restricting what people can do. Basically no one says you don't get to have an opinion because you're a straight white male.* That's just a strawman used to discredit the left-wing. Which is the big difference. You have to attack the actions of random people on the internet. Everything I've railed against is the dominant philosophy of the current government of the United States.

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I think Shapiro feels it's dangerous to allow people to construct their own perceived reality...that isn't even actual reality. It's dangerous to offer so much rope. People will only want more.

To some extent we all live in our own perceived reality.

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To some extent we all live in our own perceived reality.

Of course we do but most of us don't ignore our biology over fantasies. It'd make sense if the suicide rate was any different in the transgender community with blind acceptance and SRS, but it isn't. As far as how trans people should be treated--the answer is with kindness and compassion, but it's not kindness or compassion to not continue to search for answers. All we've done is go for the most radical solution...which has done anything but solve the problems facing that community.

 

This is no different than mental illness as far as our understanding of it is concerned. All the liberal and conservatives viewpoints on trans people are pure conjecture.

Edited by BwareDWare94

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Are you referring to their/them/etc when traditionally people would say his/him/etc by default?

 

Yes, that just seems an affront to common sense to me.

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Yes, that just seems an affront to common sense to me.

I bet you refer to individual people as "they" regularly and don't even realize it. Its handy as a gender-neutral third person in general even without bringing non binary people into it.

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But you do. You support institutionalized discrimination against transgender people in the military. If you respect peoples' gender identity, no one really gives a shit if you silently disagree. It'd be nice if you didn't but its not the end of the world.

 

TBF Ngata has said he doesn't give a shit about who is in the military as long as they can effectively serve in an active duty role if that is the role they intend to take. He isn't targeting people from a social aspect. He's targeting them from a combat effectiveness aspect. Huge difference, and I think it'd be difficult to argue that you know more about combat effectiveness over a former servicemember. A marine at that, IIRC?

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The people that peacefully oppose abortions still vote in other people on the basis of banning it.

 

Well that is the point, our elected officials are supposed to be our voice in our government. The question becomes what makes you right? How come you think that your opinion is the only right one to the exclusion of all others. Why can't people disagree with you without being bad people? Just as easily as you can say it is the mothers choice, people can say it is murder. You're both right, sort of. It should be the mother and father's right, but fathers have no rights in this country, alas not the point. You and most liberals like you seem to think you are the only people that get to be right.

 

 

One side's opinion is "I have the right to exist" and the other side is "no you don't." Those aren't equal. Would you say that during the civil rights protests of the 60s "everyone just had their own opinion about things and they should be respected? There was plenty of pseudoscience justifying why black people were inferior back then.

 

False. One group is saying,"I have the right to change my genitalia" the other is saying "I dont have to agree with your choice." Throwing out the race card is the same as the Hitler defense for liberals. Once you have made that person evil you are no longer supposed to talk to them. Being born black is not the same as a trans person. One is making a choice to change their sex, believe it or not their is a choice there. A black person has no choice as to being black.

 

 

 

The difference between trans people and cis people being jerks is that cis people are the ones that created and benefit from power structures in society. If a trans person says that they hate cis people, they're a jerk. If a cis person hates trans people, trans people get ostracized from society at best, killed at worst.

 

So its ok to be a jerk? What is a power structure? Is it real? From what I can tell people get out of life the work they put in consistently. Bruce is a "woman" and is STILL somehow popular. There have been famous trans people for a while now, so what is the difference between the rich ones who have life better than almost all of us, and the ones that dont. People want to use excuses so they dont have to answer hard questions about why their life is not the way they want it.

 

 

 

Also, my "resistance" is the traditional conservative dogma that has existed for decades. Conservatives don't want people like me to be quiet so they can start considering trans rights. They want people like me to be quiet so they can ignore the terrible things they do without having to change their behavior.

 

Well you want people to be quiet for the same reasons, so that is hypocritical. You want others to be quiet so you never have to challenge your viewpoint, and think to yourself,"Where do I get the audacity to say those who are not on the left are bad people?" You want the other side to be just as quiet as they want you so you should not act offended, you should understand the impulse better than most.

 

 

 

And when your opinions are such that "this job should be barred from you because of who you are," they shouldn't have to respect that opinion. Transition surgery is a legitimate medical procedure backed by the medical community. It should be open to military personnel the same way any other procedure is. And I don't think you understand what "check your privilege" means. Its not "you're white so you're a bad person." It means you should acknowledge the advantages you get from your race/sex/orientation etc and try to help make it better for those less privileged than you.

 

So why should I have to respect theirs? Notice how that Navy Seal did it after? He would not have been a good SEAL, if a SEAL at all had he done it during. I had no advantages, most don't. That is a lie. It is a lie perpetuated so you dont have to work harder than the next guy. Look at DMAC, he grinded his way to success. College is not for me. I get up at 2:30 in the morning every morning and grind, where was my privilege? I had none. When you take a black guy, a trans person and if they get up with me and work the same way I work all day, they too will have success. Why do people not complain about Asian privilege. They do better than white people. Why? They work harder in college. They work longer hours. They take school more seriously, they party less. That is why they are successful, there is no Asian privilege or is there?

 

 

 

 

As I've said before, I agree that Caitlyn Jenner is a piece of shit. However, I've seen no evidence that her transition is fake. There were plenty of rumors of her being trans well before the car crash.

 

I dont think its fake, I just refuse to validate him as a human being, much less trans. You have to be human to be trans.

 

 

 

Because one side is let people go about their lives. The other is about restricting what people can do. Basically no one says you don't get to have an opinion because you're a straight white male.* That's just a strawman used to discredit the left-wing. Which is the big difference. You have to attack the actions of random people on the internet. Everything I've railed against is the dominant philosophy of the current government of the United States.

 

No they dont say wee dont get to have one, they say it means less. Which is worse. You are preoccupied with sides for some reason. Do you think this is me in competition with you ? Or you with another ? I am in competition with no one else but me, I know if I do what I am capable every day it does not matter what others do I will be successful. You sir are part of the dominant structure. Have you noticed how everything is now either agree with me or your terrible? Why is the trans thing such a big deal. How come Trump enacts no policy but people are rioting over it. It is those of us who say enough is enough, lets use some common sense here, and no peoples feelings dont matter are in the minority.

 

That really is what it is. At the end of your feelings as pious as you are, they mean nothing. My feelings mean nothing. Nobodys feelings mean anything. They change nothing, they accomplish nothing, they pay no bills, or help you to success. Feelings are pretty useless once you leave your front door.

 

TBF Ngata has said he doesn't give a shit about who is in the military as long as they can effectively serve in an active duty role if that is the role they intend to take. He isn't targeting people from a social aspect. He's targeting them from a combat effectiveness aspect. Huge difference, and I think it'd be difficult to argue that you know more about combat effectiveness over a former servicemember. A marine at that, IIRC?

 

Army, SSG in the worlds most elite light infantry unit. I know a thing or two about unit readiness and combat effectiveness.

Edited by Omerta

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I bet you refer to individual people as "they" regularly and don't even realize it. Its handy as a gender-neutral third person in general even without bringing non binary people into it.

 

No, I don't. They is plural, simple as that. And non-binary is made up. There is no such thing.

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Men, women, and snowflakes

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This is a terrible comparison and honestly just wrong. Before I get too far into this let me say that I actually land on your side personally, whatever you think of transgender people they're human and should be treated with basic dignity. That said, let's not mis-characterize the opposition, most of the anti-transgender push comes from the belief that it's a mental illness and essentially that we as a society shouldn't feed into people's delusions. Nobody ever argued that race was anything other than natural and hereditary, they just argued that African-Americans had inferior heredity.

 

IMO, most of the anti-transgender push comes from the fact that people think its gross, not because of actual logic and reason, (not talking about people on here, just the general push against it). Same as most of the anti-gay marriage push is/was because people find it gross.

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My understanding was that gender dysphoria was considered a mental disorder because it causes duress and suffering for the individual; however, the treatment for this is gender transition and the state of being transgender is not itself a mental illness.

Is this wrong? I do not think that gender dysphoria classifies as a delusion. That is people being fucking idiots when it comes to mental health. A person has mental health issues if they are depressed, but that doesn't mean they are delusional. Delusions, in the context of mental health, are so much more complex and specific than what people assume they are. Delusions are a symptom of a psychotic episode or disorder, and do not at all apply to all mental disorders.

 

God, this discussion just reminds me how far we are from mental health issues even being remotely understood.

Edited by OSUViking
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You cannot under current conditions make any concrete statements about what we know about mental health, because we know practically nothing.

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You cannot under current conditions make any concrete statements about what we know about mental health, because we know practically nothing.

This is no different than mental illness as far as our understanding of it is concerned.

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I want to clarify that, if gender dysphoria really is a mental disorder, it doesn't change anything. They're not delusional. They're not having these feelings or perceptions because of intensely held self-truths. There is a biological basis for why transgender people feel the way they do.

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I want to clarify that, if gender dysphoria really is a mental disorder, it doesn't change anything. They're not delusional. They're not having these feelings or perceptions because of intensely held self-truths. There is a biological basis for why transgender people feel the way they do.

That is not true, or at the very least not even close to definitive.

 

If it's not a mental disorder why is there such a high rate of suicide? Bullying? Try again--the vast majority of suicides have nothing whatsoever to do with bullying. If outside sources caused suicide we'd have way, way more suicides. On occasional bullying contributes, but it's an anomaly.

 

When it comes to gender dysphoria any treatment presently given is ineffective in curbing the suicide rate. We have not found the answer. That, and this is much more likely, we're ignoring the answer. Treat it humanely as a mental disorder.

Edited by BwareDWare94

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