Crash 105 Posted June 20, 2013 Montee Ball went up against B10 defenses for the most part. Not exactly the best competition, lol. Neither are the raiders, jax, saints, GB defenses to name a few. Their is the SEC of defenses in the league (Seattle, SF, Denver, Balt). Then there's the big10 already previously named. Russell Wilson went up against those same defenses and he's played pretty well, like I said, a guys school doesn't define his heart or drive and personally I'm going to believe John Elways talent evaluation as a top 5 GM over any armchair GM on the Internet Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Favre4Ever+ 4,476 Posted June 20, 2013 This is a uneducated assumption most people think. In fact it's almost a arrow that points to Ball being more successful. AP, Matt forte, ray rice and daren sproles all had that amount of carries if not more. Okay, firstly... Let's take it down a notch. How about you give me a bunch of RBs with a ton of carries who sucked? It would be a much better comparison to Ball's skill level. Secondly... Ball - 924 Forte - 833 Sproles - 815 AP - 747 That's not nearly as close as you would have led us to believe. Thirdly... Big 10 RBs to amass 900 rush attempts in their careers. Ron Dayne (983|3722|28), Anthony Thompson (251|831|6), Lorenzo White (1062|4242|44), Michael Hart (71|264|2), Robert Holcombe (337|1141|11), Damien Anderson (45|142|0), Montee Ball (Not Counted), Archie Griffin (691|2808|7), Darrell Thompson (464|1641|7), Anthony Davis (0|0|0) Nine names. 3904 carries. 14791 yards. 3.7 YPC. 105 TDs. Average Career of Big 10 Rusher with 900+ carries in college: 433 carries, 1641 yards, 3.7 ypc, 11 TD Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AL_Royalty 489 Posted June 20, 2013 Okay, firstly... Let's take it down a notch. How about you give me a bunch of RBs with a ton of carries who sucked? It would be a much better comparison to Ball's skill level. Secondly... Ball - 924 Forte - 833 Sproles - 815 AP - 747 That's not nearly as close as you would have led us to believe. Thirdly... Big 10 RBs to amass 900 rush attempts in their careers. Ron Dayne (983|3722|28), Anthony Thompson (251|831|6), Lorenzo White (1062|4242|44), Michael Hart (71|264|2), Robert Holcombe (337|1141|11), Damien Anderson (45|142|0), Montee Ball (Not Counted), Archie Griffin (691|2808|7), Darrell Thompson (464|1641|7), Anthony Davis (0|0|0) Nine names. 3904 carries. 14791 yards. 3.7 YPC. 105 TDs. Average Career of Big 10 Rusher with 900+ carries in college: 433 carries, 1641 yards, 3.7 ypc, 11 TD You guys are playing FOX-CNN. Let's take it down a notch. lol There are busts and ballers that come out of every conference. It's part of the program, so to speak. The truth is that there's really nothing worthwhile to reference as far as a measuring stick for NFL success. Most of the time, it's an eye test and crapshoot. Personally, I like Ball better. That Bama team, we could have lined up in the backfield and picked up yards. Lacy had grown men blocking for him. Ball played in the B10. which apparently is either really great or really bad, depending on who you ask. I like Ball. I think he's gonna be pretty good, and Denver is already a pretty good running team. If Manning feels like handing the ball off instead of just running play action and pass-pass-pass, I could see Ball having a really good year. He could be this year's OROY since it's probably not going to be a QB. As for Lacy, GB just has no running game. I think that's as much the fault of the backs as the line, but they both played a pretty big part in it. Even if Lacy is a decent back, that run blocking needs to improve GREATLY if he's gonna go out there and prove it. Everyone in that 'Bama backfield looks like a damn pro, so his success in college isn't really all that impressive to me, while everyone looks like crap running behind that GB line, which doesn't bode well for this kid. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Favre4Ever+ 4,476 Posted June 20, 2013 You guys are playing FOX-CNN. Let's take it down a notch. lol There are busts and ballers that come out of every conference. It's part of the program, so to speak. The truth is that there's really nothing worthwhile to reference as far as a measuring stick for NFL success. Most of the time, it's an eye test and crapshoot. Personally, I like Ball better. That Bama team, we could have lined up in the backfield and picked up yards. Lacy had grown men blocking for him. Ball played in the B10. which apparently is either really great or really bad, depending on who you ask. I like Ball. I think he's gonna be pretty good, and Denver is already a pretty good running team. If Manning feels like handing the ball off instead of just running play action and pass-pass-pass, I could see Ball having a really good year. He could be this year's OROY since it's probably not going to be a QB. As for Lacy, GB just has no running game. I think that's as much the fault of the backs as the line, but they both played a pretty big part in it. Even if Lacy is a decent back, that run blocking needs to improve GREATLY if he's gonna go out there and prove it. Everyone in that 'Bama backfield looks like a damn pro, so his success in college isn't really all that impressive to me, while everyone looks like crap running behind that GB line, which doesn't bode well for this kid. There has been no ballers come out of the Big 10 with 900+ college carries. I wouldn't say they were all busts... but, meh. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bay 2,003 Posted June 20, 2013 (edited) Also Wisconsin backs have historically either busted or did nothing of note in the NFL. Michael Bennett was probably the best from recent years. Ron Dayne... Edited June 20, 2013 by Bay 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KempBolt 498 Posted June 20, 2013 Get off your high horse. A speed back who can run in between the tackles is a perfect RB for a high tempo spread offense obviously. C'mon Man. If you're going to tell me how everything is always perfect in Bronco Land, you at least have to let me make cracks about it. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KempBolt 498 Posted June 20, 2013 I don't feel the need to point to Wisconisn's track record. I am content to point to Ball's below average traits as a running back. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Favre4Ever+ 4,476 Posted June 20, 2013 Maybe all of the negatives will counteract and form one epic Hall of Fame running back? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KempBolt 498 Posted June 20, 2013 Maybe all of the negatives will counteract and form one epic Hall of Fame running back? Undoubtedly. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SolomonGrundy 10 Posted June 20, 2013 These Broncos fans Ball is not a good receiver, there is a reason why James White and Gordon were always the backs used in the passing game. I was a big fan of Montee Ball, but how many carries he got and the lack of burst will not lead to a good career. That's why both of them always had less receptions than Ball right? Wisconsin didn't pass the ball much to begin with and RBs were rarely apart of it when they did. Ball's best receiving season was with Wilson when they would split him out at WR occasionally (24 receptions 300 yards and 6 TDs). How many carries he got is a weak argument, I would understand if he's been injury prone in college but he hasn't been. Ball didn't leave himself susceptible to big hits in college and it's why he was able to stay healthy and get all those carries. The way Lacy runs, he's way more likely to be out of the league sooner and he's already getting nicked up. Neither Moreno nor McGahee has a burst, Ball has more burst than both of them and both of them were fine last year. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stewy 8 Posted June 20, 2013 I think a lot depends on how much of a workload both of them get at this point. Lacy has Franklin as well to compete with and he seems a better fit for a hurry up type offense than Lacy. So I could see Franklin getting plenty of opportunities. The Broncos have Hillman and Moreno that will probably take a few carries away from Ball as well. Another factor could be head coaches. The Broncos have shown to be a more run heavy team than the Packers over the last few years with Fox at the helm and my guess is even though Green Bay will run a bit more this year the Broncos will still run it more than the Packers. There are just too many factors beyond just even actual playing ability that could really factor into this argument to really pick one over the other. If I had to pick one to have the better year I would probably go with Ball just because I trust him to stay healthy through the whole year and to possibly have the bigger opportunity to make an impact. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KempBolt 498 Posted June 20, 2013 I think a lot depends on how much of a workload both of them get at this point. Lacy has Franklin as well to compete with and he seems a better fit for a hurry up type offense than Lacy. So I could see Franklin getting plenty of opportunities. The Broncos have Hillman and Moreno that will probably take a few carries away from Ball as well. Another factor could be head coaches. The Broncos have shown to be a more run heavy team than the Packers over the last few years with Fox at the helm and my guess is even though Green Bay will run a bit more this year the Broncos will still run it more than the Packers. There are just too many factors beyond just even actual playing ability that could really factor into this argument to really pick one over the other. If I had to pick one to have the better year I would probably go with Ball just because I trust him to stay healthy through the whole year and to possibly have the bigger opportunity to make an impact. Denver ran the ball 45% of the time last year, with Green Bay coming in at 44%. Just FWIW. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stewy 8 Posted June 20, 2013 Denver ran the ball 45% of the time last year, with Green Bay coming in at 44%. Just FWIW. I apologize I did not look it up as I should have. I knew the Broncos ran it more just didn't know by how much. It should be an interesting race this year of which RB will actually be the most productive. I think even beyond these 2 you have to include Bell in the conversation and it always seems some late round guy decides to show up as well. I actually think Bell will end up having the best season of any of them mostly because he will definitely be the top ball carrier barring injury for the Steelers and I don't think it will even be close. Lacy and Ball just have more behind each of them that will take carries away from them. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KempBolt 498 Posted June 20, 2013 I apologize I did not look it up as I should have. I knew the Broncos ran it more just didn't know by how much. It should be an interesting race this year of which RB will actually be the most productive. I think even beyond these 2 you have to include Bell in the conversation and it always seems some late round guy decides to show up as well. I actually think Bell will end up having the best season of any of them mostly because he will definitely be the top ball carrier barring injury for the Steelers and I don't think it will even be close. Lacy and Ball just have more behind each of them that will take carries away from them. Agree. Bell is certainly my top rookie RB for fantasy purposes. I actually prefer him talent-wise to the other two anyways. Big power back with great feet who can catch and was productive behind one of the worst offensive lines in the Big 10. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Omerta+ 1,206 Posted June 20, 2013 Ya cause Lacy is so much faster and he's so durable with his 150 carries as a feature back, really tough guy while ball has 900 carries without missing any game while Ball has a career average of 5.3 and 2 years over 6 yards a carry. The only reason people don't like him is because of his school which is beyond dumb to me, a school doesn't dictate a persons heart and drive. TD didn't run a fast 40 or have a exceptional "burst" and he was one of the best running backs of all time So you would draft a USC QB ? And bringing up TD is irrelevant. He had a coach named Mike Shanahan. When has he ever NOT had a 1000 yard rusher. What is beyond dumb to me how you dont ever see your team ever having any problems that could be their downfall. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Packers Dynasty 2010 116 Posted June 20, 2013 (edited) That's why both of them always had less receptions than Ball right? Wisconsin didn't pass the ball much to begin with and RBs were rarely apart of it when they did. Ball's best receiving season was with Wilson when they would split him out at WR occasionally (24 receptions 300 yards and 6 TDs). How many carries he got is a weak argument, I would understand if he's been injury prone in college but he hasn't been. Ball didn't leave himself susceptible to big hits in college and it's why he was able to stay healthy and get all those carries. The way Lacy runs, he's way more likely to be out of the league sooner and he's already getting nicked up. Neither Moreno nor McGahee has a burst, Ball has more burst than both of them and both of them were fine last year. This past season, all of Ball's receptions were him being a fall-back option. Ball was used in screens and other RB designated pass plays. How is how many carries he got a weak argument? He goes through the trenches and has been banged up. RBs have the shortest NFL career and when a RB has had as much tear as Ball as had, they don't last long. Did you miss how Ball was banged up nearly all season? Edited June 20, 2013 by Packers Dynasty 2010 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Crash 105 Posted June 21, 2013 This past season, all of Ball's receptions were him being a fall-back option. Ball was used in screens and other RB designated pass plays. How is how many carries he got a weak argument? He goes through the trenches and has been banged up. RBs have the shortest NFL career and when a RB has had as much tear as Ball as had, they don't last long. Did you miss how Ball was banged up nearly all season? are you sure your not talking about Lacy cause ball didn't miss a game all year Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Crash 105 Posted June 21, 2013 So you would draft a USC QB ? And bringing up TD is irrelevant. He had a coach named Mike Shanahan. When has he ever NOT had a 1000 yard rusher. What is beyond dumb to me how you dont ever see your team ever having any problems that could be their downfall. That's because I think Elway has been maybe the best GM in the league since he came in. We have 1-2 spots that have questions but if the players play like they should we don't have holes in the roster. Number 1 in sacks Number 2 defense Top 5 oline that improved in the offseason Top 3 QB Top 2 WR corp and maybe the best group of corners in the league The only questions were really have are at MLB and RB and we are still somewhat talented in those positions. We will see how that turns out in camp. The only thing that could really hurt us is if we lose miller Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
housemd 338 Posted June 21, 2013 That's because I think Elway has been maybe the best GM in the league since he came in. We have 1-2 spots that have questions but if the players play like they should we don't have holes in the roster. Number 1 in sacks Number 2 defense Top 5 oline that improved in the offseason Top 3 QB Top 2 WR corp and maybe the best group of corners in the league The only questions were really have are at MLB and RB and we are still somewhat talented in those positions. We will see how that turns out in camp. The only thing that could really hurt us is if we lose miller Yeah,you're pretty much invincible. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KempBolt 498 Posted June 21, 2013 (edited) That's because I think Elway has been maybe the best GM in the league since he came in. We have 1-2 spots that have questions but if the players play like they should we don't have holes in the roster. Number 1 in sacks Number 2 defense Top 5 oline that improved in the offseason Top 3 QB Top 2 WR corp and maybe the best group of corners in the league The only questions were really have are at MLB and RB and we are still somewhat talented in those positions. We will see how that turns out in camp. The only thing that could really hurt us is if we lose miller This is why people don't take you seriously. You can't stop at just being one of the best teams in the AFC, you have to try and make the case that you're next to unstoppable. If I was a Broncos fan, I would be concerned about the following: -Getting any kind of consistent complimentary pass rush from my DE's to support Von Miller. -The last performance of my 35 year old #1 corner. I realize it's one game, but it also gave a blueprint for burning him. According to this breakdown, Champ had some trouble all season with double moves. If the league knows that now, they're going to use it: http://presnapreads.com/2013/06/11/champ-bailey-understanding-the-difference-between-reality-and-perception/ -You're projecting to start a 34 year old career cornerback at SS. -Interior offensive line. Your center is probably out the whole year, your new starter is 34 years old and just got signed off the street, and your best backup is reportedly not healthy right now. -MLB and RB as you mentioned. None of these things are guaranteed to be problems. But to act as if there's no question that they're all going to work out just find is myopic, and frankly kind of annoying to listen to. Also- I want to know what exactly Elway has done to be considered a top GM in this league? It seems to me that he had the #2 overall pick at the right time, and one of the best QB's to ever play the game happened to hit free agency. He's certainly not bad, and he may prove himself to be the best, but so far he's had two of the best players in the league fall into his lap. Edited June 21, 2013 by KempBolt Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stewy 8 Posted June 21, 2013 This past season, all of Ball's receptions were him being a fall-back option. Ball was used in screens and other RB designated pass plays. How is how many carries he got a weak argument? He goes through the trenches and has been banged up. RBs have the shortest NFL career and when a RB has had as much tear as Ball as had, they don't last long. Did you miss how Ball was banged up nearly all season? Carries in college does not translate to length of career in the NFL. There are plenty of players in the NFL right now who had a ton of carries in college that are doing just fine and having long careers. Ray Rice is a great example as he had over 900 carries in just 3 years in college and yet has gone on to have a very productive NFL career with very few injuries. On the other side of the coin with Lacy there were teams completely taking him off their draft boards because of the injury history especially the most recent surgeries he has had to have. So my question would be if a guy carries the ball 900 times and has 0 injuries compared to a guy that carries 200 times and has multiple injuries which one is going to be more injury prone in their NFL career? Also Ball was not banged up all season. He received a concussion before the season started when he was assaulted but after the first few games of the season had no signs of that affecting his game. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
