Vilma sueing Goodell

[Eefluxx 113]

http://www.webwiseforradio.com/site_files/244/File/Vilma%20-%20Complaint%20-%20Filed.pdf

 

 

Maybe we will get some evidence revealed

[No Spygate No Win 0]

Good luck with that.

[badgers 380]

From what I gather according to the document, Vilma is suing Goodell because he believes Goodell's statements that he (among others) "embraced" the Bounty Program and supported it were false?

 

I'm not sure this gets anywhere. In court, more evidence is bound to show up so it'll severely damage the reputation of one of them, imo.

 

Either Goodell looks like a liar or Vilma looks like a dirty player.

[Favre4Ever+ 4,476]

Ya, Vilma is saying that he never paid or offered to pay anyone to intentionally hurt another player.

[Shotgun 442]

He's probably suing Goodell in the hopes the documents are forced to become public. If there is a lack of evidence like he thinks there is it could cause some backlash.

[oochymp 2,393]

This makes for a good headline for Vilma, but it's going to be a tough case. To get defamation to stick Vilma will have to show that (1) Goodell's statements in question (regarding Vilma's role in the bounty program) are false, (2) Goodell knew those statements were false, and (3) Goodell made the statements with the intent to damage Vilma's reputation. Intent is always the hardest part to prove and I don't think he's going to be able to do it.

Edited May 18, 2012 by oochymp

[BwareDWare94 723]

Had the league given Vilma a fair suspension, this wouldn't be happening. Again--withdraw, equalize, and redistribute. 8 games for everybody.

[KiLaSix9+ 398]

It's funny how Vilma waited until he got suspended before coming out so strongly in his defense. When his name was being thrown around and his coach got suspended, he had nothing to say.

[Eefluxx 113]

It's funny how Vilma waited until he got suspended before coming out so strongly in his defense. When his name was being thrown around and his coach got suspended, he had nothing to say.

 

 

What people are saying (not that I have heard Vilma say this) is that he kept quiet or pleaded the 5th as they say to protect the coaches and other players involved. And as BWare kinda said if his suspension was less (like 4 games maybe) he probably wouldn't be doing this.

 

I do think this is a means to get the evidence that the NFL is reluctant to put out there. One side in this is going to look very foolish and very bad if evidence does come out. Vilma (as well as some media now) doesn't think the NFL has any real evidence to support these punishments.

 

The evidence that has been released (or leaked) so far has been ripped apart by former lawyers (who are somehow sportswriters now) as not saying what the NFL claim they say.

[Milla4Prez63 678]

This makes for a good headline for Vilma, but it's going to be a tough case. To get defamation to stick Vilma will have to show that (1) Goodell's statements in question (regarding Vilma's role in the bounty program) are false, (2) Goodell knew those statements were false, and (3) Goodell made the statements with the intent to damage Vilma's reputation. Intent is always the hardest part to prove and I don't think he's going to be able to do it.

 

Vilma is unlikely to win the case, and I don't think he is trying to honestly. I think he is trying to force the NFL into releasing the evidence they acted on to suspend him. Somebody is going to look bad after this is all said and done.

[Eefluxx 113]

Vilma is unlikely to win the case, and I don't think he is trying to honestly. I think he is trying to force the NFL into releasing the evidence they acted on to suspend him. Somebody is going to look bad after this is all said and done.

 

An unfortunatly for us Saints fans, we could get what we want with the evidence released and it could come back to bite us in the ass.

 

If they release it then I will suffer whatever it entails, at least I will have seen actual evidence and not what the NFL tries to push as evidence.

 

But there will be some fans who will claim cover up on the NFL's part if it doesn't go there way.

[CARDINAL 205]

Death to Roger Goodell!!!

this fuckin bastard is trying to destroy the NFL. First moving the kickoff team up 5 yards so now all kickoffs are boring because almost all of them are touchbacks. Now he's trying to destroy players without disclosing any evidence. This man is a cancer that needs to be annilated from the NFl forever. I say egg in the face for 1 hour straight by NFL fans from every team!!!!!!

[Bucman 891]

You can't really release evidence to the public when it has yet to go on trial...

[Bangy 19]

Death to Roger Goodell!!!

this fuckin bastard is trying to destroy the NFL. First moving the kickoff team up 5 yards so now all kickoffs are boring because almost all of them are touchbacks. Now he's trying to destroy players without disclosing any evidence. This man is a cancer that needs to be annilated from the NFl forever. I say egg in the face for 1 hour straight by NFL fans from every team!!!!!!

 

WTF are you going on about now?

 

I will be interested in how this plays out because if it does come out that Goodell is falsifying reports by saying that there is more evidence then there actually is the backlash on him is going to be huge and will then bring up questions as to what other past evidence he may of "made" shall we say. This is going to affect Goodell a lot if this does go to court.

 

If Vilma fails tbh being labelled as a dirty player really isn't going to affect him on the field he is still going to be the same player on it that he was before the suspension.

[Jayrus 51]

If this were a poker game, then Vilma would have just called an all-in from Goodell with a pair of twos. There's a small chance Goodell was bluffing, but more than likely when the cards are thrown down he'll have thrown away everything.

 

Honestly, watching this ongoing charade by the Saints and their fans has destroyed what little respect I had for them before this all came out. They broke the rules, they lied about it, they broke them again, and now that they got caught we're supposed to believe that the SAINTS are the victims here?

 

I can understand the fans defending their team. The Saints are the glue that holds that city together. However, when defending your team just becomes making excuses and sticking your fingers in your ears and going "LALALALALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!!" whenever someone brings up the fact that you've already lost, given a confession, and been convicted, it's time to re-evaluate your position.

 

I see Saints fans who instead of accepting the cold truth have decided to try and convince us they're the victims of some sort of "conspiracy" in the NFL to destroy the Saints. That Roger Goodell is unfairly targetting them to send a message. This is even though your team has already ADMITTED to doing what they were accused of doing.

 

That is, until the punishments were actually levvied. Now suddenly "The NFL is being unfair to us! We have to fight even though we already confessed to doing what they said we did!" Now we're supposed to feel bad for the Saints? We're supposed to buy this story that the NFL made this all up to destroy you? Yeah, I think the ones making things up are the Saints.

 

I have no sympathy for the Saints at this point, and not because they were a team I disliked in the first place. If this had been my Seahawks in your place I would be just as angry and disappointed, and I CERTAILY wouldn't be making such dumb excuses for them. I'd demand ANSWERS from my team. I'd want heads to ROLL.

 

This needs to stop. There is no "conspiracy" against the Saints. You are NOT the victims here, no matter how badly you want us to believe you are. The true victims are the players whose careers you tried to end. As for Vilma? Let him fight. In the end, he'll get what he deserves.

Edited May 29, 2012 by Jayrus

[Omerta+ 1,206]

If this were a poker game, then Vilma would have just called an all-in from Goodell with a pair of twos. There's a small chance Goodell was bluffing, but more than likely when the cards are thrown down he'll have thrown away everything.

 

Honestly, watching this ongoing charade by the Saints and their fans has destroyed what little respect I had for them before this all came out. They broke the rules, they lied about it, they broke them again, and now that they got caught we're supposed to believe that the SAINTS are the victims here?

 

I can understand the fans defending their team. The Saints are the glue that holds that city together. However, when defending your team just becomes making excuses and sticking your fingers in your ears and going "LALALALALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!!" whenever someone brings up the fact that you've already lost, given a confession, and been convicted, it's time to re-evaluate your position.

 

I see Saints fans who instead of accepting the cold truth have decided to try and convince us they're the victims of some sort of "conspiracy" in the NFL to destroy the Saints. That Roger Goodell is unfairly targetting them to send a message. This is even though your team has already ADMITTED to doing what they were accused of doing.

 

That is, until the punishments were actually levvied. Now suddenly "The NFL is being unfair to us! We have to fight even though we already confessed to doing what they said we did!" Now we're supposed to feel bad for the Saints? We're supposed to buy this story that the NFL made this all up to destroy you? Yeah, I think the ones making things up are the Saints.

 

I have no sympathy for the Saints at this point, and not because they were a team I disliked in the first place. If this had been my Seahawks in your place I would be just as angry and disappointed, and I CERTAILY wouldn't be making such dumb excuses for them. I'd demand ANSWERS from my team. I'd want heads to ROLL.

 

This needs to stop. There is no "conspiracy" against the Saints. You are NOT the victims here, no matter how badly you want us to believe you are. The true victims are the players whose careers you tried to end. As for Vilma? Let him fight. In the end, he'll get what he deserves.

 

If all of this is true why does this bother you ? If you are correct then Roger Goodell is going to take Vilma to the cleaners and it is going to empirically prove that the saints were in the wrong and when the evidence is released and it turns out that Goodell was correct than Vilma will not have a leg to stand on.

 

Now for one second lets just assume the opposite. What if Vilma knows he did not and he wants it called into question about half the crooked shit that happens in this league because of that stupid fucktard Goodell.

 

I personally think this is all in the middle because Goodell has something or else he is just plain fucking stupid. Either that or he thought nobody would question any of his authority for the fear of the repercussions of the all powerful douche bag. So I think he will get caught with SOMETHING that makes him look like the pompous, long winded, douche bagged fuckwad he really is.

 

Also Vilma would not have done this if he knew he was going to lose on all counts so I think that he has something up his sleeve. There is no way he cuts his own throat without gaining something. If he can even discredit GODell a little bit than the backlash will be ten times worse than what it will be if Vilma is proved on all counts.

[Thanatos 2,847]

I agree with Ngata. Vilma wouldn't do this if he knew that he had done it, unless he thinks the NFL has no evidence that he did so. Given that they have publicly stated that they do, I really don't understand this move unless Vilma is actually innocent.

 

Or he's just really dumb.

[Jayrus 51]

I agree with Ngata. Vilma wouldn't do this if he knew that he had done it, unless he thinks the NFL has no evidence that he did so. Given that they have publicly stated that they do, I really don't understand this move unless Vilma is actually innocent.

 

Or he's just really dumb.

 

Wouldn't he? You don't think he'd commit professional suicide if the Saints told him to? You know how loyal those guys are down there. Also, if he's so innocent, why did he wait until now to fight? Where was he when these allegations first came out? His name was out the moment this crapstorm broke. He knew he was on the shortlist for punishment from the get-go, and yet he did nothing until he was actually punished. Why? I'll tell you. They thought they were going to get away with it just like they did three years ago, so they told him to keep quiet and it would all blow over. Only this time it didn't, and they got $h!tcanned by Goodell. So now they told him to fight in the hopes they can prove Goodell didn't have the evidence he says he did. If they're right they win. If not they serve the punishments they were given and the only one who suffers for challenging the league is Vilma.

Edited May 30, 2012 by Jayrus

[Omerta+ 1,206]

Wouldn't he? You don't think he'd commit professional suicide if the Saints told him to? You know how loyal those guys are down there. Also, if he's so innocent, why did he wait until now to fight? Where was he when these allegations first came out? His name was out the moment this crapstorm broke. He knew he was on the shortlist for punishment from the get-go, and yet he did nothing until he was actually punished. Why? I'll tell you. They thought they were going to get away with it just like they did three years ago, so they told him to keep quiet and it would all blow over. Only this time it didn't, and they got $h!tcanned by Goodell. So now they told him to fight in the hopes they can prove Goodell didn't have the evidence he says he did. If they're right they win. If not they serve the punishments they were given and the only one who suffers for challenging the league is Vilma.

 

Well that is definitely one logical perspective about the situation, and I cant say it is not.

 

That said just thinking about it from my personal perspective I would have waited as well. there are a couple of reasons. First yes I would want to wait until the whole thing was over so I could see everything that was in his hand first. If it was just a ho hum punishment that amounted to nothing than I would let it alone. That being said since it was so severe he now knows what is up Goodell's sleeve as far as punishments. Now that it is in court it si all up to Goodell to prove his case. He is the accuser and Vilma is innocent until proven guilty so now the proof has to be brought out by Goodell if he wants to win.

 

Another thing Vilma probably has taken into consideration is the Patriots spygate scandal. The one where Goodell destroyed evidence. What if Goodell did that and that is why no evidence is brought up ? What if the evidence is not conclusive except from just some sworn statement by a NFL lackey?

 

Vilma may have baited a trap and Goodell thinking he was all powerful may have just walked right into it. If there is indded no evidence either ever or anymore than he fucked himself out of a case since this is not a NFL matter but a civil matter in a civil court so the burden of proof falls on Goodell.

[Thanatos 2,847]

Well that is definitely one logical perspective about the situation, and I cant say it is not.

 

That said just thinking about it from my personal perspective I would have waited as well. there are a couple of reasons. First yes I would want to wait until the whole thing was over so I could see everything that was in his hand first. If it was just a ho hum punishment that amounted to nothing than I would let it alone. That being said since it was so severe he now knows what is up Goodell's sleeve as far as punishments. Now that it is in court it si all up to Goodell to prove his case. He is the accuser and Vilma is innocent until proven guilty so now the proof has to be brought out by Goodell if he wants to win.

 

Another thing Vilma probably has taken into consideration is the Patriots spygate scandal. The one where Goodell destroyed evidence. What if Goodell did that and that is why no evidence is brought up ? What if the evidence is not conclusive except from just some sworn statement by a NFL lackey?

 

Vilma may have baited a trap and Goodell thinking he was all powerful may have just walked right into it. If there is indded no evidence either ever or anymore than he fucked himself out of a case since this is not a NFL matter but a civil matter in a civil court so the burden of proof falls on Goodell.

 

Actually, the burden of proof is on Vilma.

 

The court of public opinion may be won by Vilma regardless of the outcome of the trial, but it is up to Vilma to prove that Goodell intentionally and maliciously did this to them, with the intent to defame him. Vilma is, after all, the accuser, not the defendant, in this case.

[Omerta+ 1,206]

Actually, the burden of proof is on Vilma.

 

The court of public opinion may be won by Vilma regardless of the outcome of the trial, but it is up to Vilma to prove that Goodell intentionally and maliciously did this to them, with the intent to defame him. Vilma is, after all, the accuser, not the defendant, in this case.

 

That is the tricky part about this case in my opinion I mean I know Vilma is the accuser but he is actually the one being attacked.

 

The reason I said that is because a federal court can subpoena that evidence and try to prove that Goodell was justified in doing what he did.

 

If it turns out that all the evidence is what Goodell says it is then Vilma would not take him to court and considering it was a league investigation he has not dot to see the evidence against him.

 

In court he will actually get to see it thanks to disclosure because if Goodell omits it then he could face sever consequences considering Goodell than has lost all proof and Vilma wins the case because Goodell did that with no evidence. If he does reveal it and it comes to light that it was just some BS heresay than Vilma still wins.

 

It is up to Goodell in my opinion because he is the one holding all the evidence and has to prove he was actually speaking off of some basis in fact not just opinion.

 

Techinically you are correct but at this point with this case it is up to Goodell to clear his name, not Vilma because his name has already been drug through the dirt so he has nothing to lose.

[Eefluxx 113]

Actually, the burden of proof is on Vilma.The court of public opinion may be won by Vilma regardless of the outcome of the trial, but it is up to Vilma to prove that Goodell intentionally and maliciously did this to them, with the intent to defame him. Vilma is, after all, the accuser, not the defendant, in this case.

 

This is true, I don't think he can actually convince a court that Goodell was intentionally malicious.

 

This is just one way for evidence to potentially be brought forth.

 

@Jaysus, I'm sorry us Saints fans are idiots for not believing that Pay for Performance is also Pay to Injure. This what Goodell says. He says he has proof that we were paying to injure. Well he must have a ledger or something written down with dates and proof of payments to individuals performing these acts because he sure as hell doesn't have any video evidence of it.

 

Yes Gregg Williams speech was bad, but as has been said before in the game after said speech nothing untoward was done to 49'er players. Saints committed no penalties in that game.

 

Plus the new CBA states players can't be punished for acts happening before the current CBA. Yet Goodell is doing just that by mentioning the playoff games in 2009 as proof of program. In fact those are the only acts he are mentioning. He has nothing for the 2011 season which is the only season he can uses against us according to the new CBA.

 

NFL has shown little evidence and what evidence that has been shown has been shredded to pieces by public media (not just in New Orleans).

[Jayrus 51]

From Gregg Rosenthal @ NFL.com

 

The NFL players implicated in the New Orleans Saints "bounty" scandal have repeatedly asked for evidence that a bounty program was in place. Commissioner Roger Goodell indicated that evidence will eventually come out.

 

On Friday afternoon, it apparently arrived, via Jason Cole of Yahoo! Sports.

 

Citing two sources with knowledge of the situation, Cole reported that the league has a copy of a "ledger" that recorded detailed weekly earnings for players in the bounty program. The week-by-week tally included "cart-offs" and "whacks." It deducted points for "mental errors."

 

A player reportedly earned $1,000 for hits that resulted in an opponent being helped off the field. (A "cart-off.") Players earned $400 for "whacks." One opponent that was carted off wound up on injured reserve and had an exclamation point put next to his name.

 

This is potentially a devastating blow for the players' case as they appeal their suspensions. It puts a concrete number on what an injury was worth. The intent was to take players out of a game, and successfully accomplishing that goal was worth $1,000.

 

"The players knew what their actions were for," a source told Cole.

 

UPDATE: Multiple sources with knowledge of the situation later told NFL.com's Steve Wyche that the league does, in fact, possess written documentation of the Saints' program. The sources told Wyche that the documentation was kept by a coach or former coach.

 

The fact that this report came form Yahoo Sports doesn't exctly fill me with confidence, but if this is true then it says Goodell wasn't just blowing smoke. He has the proof he says he does. Now, I can already hear you Saints fans saying "But $1000 is nothing to these people!". You have to remember most players aren't making the big bucks, and I would argue that a grand is grand whether you make $100,000 a year or $1,000,000 a year. Besides. IF this report is accurate, Goodell has a ledger that not only proves you WERE paying for injuries, but has an actual price list as well as a record of who got payed what.

 

Now, I'm sure you and your defenders will rip this apart somehow, but this to me, doesn't look good for the Saints. One wonders how much more Goodell has, and whether Vilma has just started a fight he can't possibly win.

Edited June 2, 2012 by Jayrus

[Eefluxx 113]

From Gregg Rosenthal @ NFL.com

 

 

 

The fact that this report came form Yahoo Sports doesn't exctly fill me with confidence, but if this is true then it says Goodell wasn't just blowing smoke. He has the proof he says he does. Now, I can already hear you Saints fans saying "But $1000 is nothing to these people!". You have to remember most players aren't making the big bucks, and I would argue that a grand is grand whether you make $100,000 a year or $1,000,000 a year. Besides. IF this report is accurate, Goodell has a ledger that not only proves you WERE paying for injuries, but has an actual price list as well as a record of who got payed what.

 

Now, I'm sure you and your defenders will rip this apart somehow, but this to me, doesn't look good for the Saints. One wonders how much more Goodell has, and whether Vilma has just started a fight he can't possibly win.

 

Here is the actual Yahoo article

 

 

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nfl--sources--new-orleans-saints-kept-a--ledger--detailing-weekly-earnings-in-bounty-scandal.html;_ylt=AnUcd680MJWxA4bBtZowhfs5nYcB

 

 

While the ledger doesn't necessarily prove that there was an actual transaction, it is potentially strong evidence that such a system existed. In the ledger, payments of $1,000 for cart-offs (a hit that resulted in a player being helped off the field), $400 for whacks (hard hits) and $100 deductions for mental errors were kept track of for each player

.

 

Let the bolded statement show that a "cart-off" doesn't necessarily mean actually carted off the field, just helped off.

 

 

Two specific entries for the 2009 season were shown during one meeting. In a game against the New York Giants on Oct. 18, there was a $1,000 bounty awarded for one cart-off

 

Anyone from the Giants who can tell me who got "carted off"? Only injury I remembered was to Guard Kareem Mckenzie and he had a groin pull. Did the Saints cause that?

 

 

In a game against the Carolina Panthers on Nov. 8, 2009, there were three $1,000 awards.

 

Thanatos, I know you can help me with this one cause the only injury I remember from that game was Thomas Davis's ACL where he went down with noone around him. You might be able to remember who else got injured in that game.

 

 

(A source initially said the three $1,000 awards were given in Buffalo on Sept. 27, 2009, but that source and another source later corrected that report.)

 

Yet another unnamed source and he/she can't even remember which game he/she is even talking about.

 

I don't deny the Saints had a pay for performance system in place, I just don't believe it was a pay to deliberatly injure system like the NFL is claiming.

 

Jayrus I agree that $1000 is alot to some of these players espcially as it was tax free and under the table. Every little but helps as they say. I won't deny that.

Edited June 2, 2012 by Eefluxx

[Thanatos 2,847]

Thanatos, I know you can help me with this one cause the only injury I remember from that game was Thomas Davis's ACL where he went down with noone around him. You might be able to remember who else got injured in that game.

 

Chris Gamble also left the game with an injury temporarily, though he came back in two Saints possessions later. The only other players injured during the game that were taken off were Thomas Davis, Jabari Greer and Robert Meachem.

 

I sure hope they weren't giving out $1k for their own players going down.

 

The Gamble hit is the only one which would fit this, except it doesn't really make sense because Gamble was injured while tackling a Saint. It wasn't a hit, and it wasn't Meachem's fault, that's for sure.

 

So unless the Saints were just giving out $1k to a random person every time an opponent went down, in which case there were 2 "cart-offs" this doesn't make any sense whatsoever, and I don't know which game that person was watching, but it sure as hell wasn't the Nov. 8, 2009 game where the Saints won 30-20.

 

As far as the McKenzie hit, if I remember that one correctly, he was trying to protect his QB, and his leg simply bent awkwardly. He then came back in to play some more, got hit on a running play again, and this time went out for good. That one, at least, fits the accusation.

Edited June 2, 2012 by Thanatos19