Russell Wilson's ascension to elite QB ranks

[Thanatos 2,847]

In no way shape or form did Wilson yesterday prove he's an elite QB.

In no way shape or form did Wilson yesterday not prove he's an elite QB.

 

He was efficient when needed, didnt turn the ball over and hit most of his passes. The 'Hawks didn't need him to be elite yesterday, but that doesn't mean he can't be when its needed.

[RazorStar 4,025]

Russell Wilson joins a select list of elite QB's who have made it to a super bowl in their first two years. The other guys had pretty good careers all things considered (Dan Marino, Kurt Warner, Ben Roethlisberger). I feel like people discount Wilson simply because he has good teammates. Peyton always had good teammates, Brady has had hall of fame semifinalists crowding his defenses. The only years the Packers and Saints explosive offenses pulled off championships is when the defenses were matching suit.

 

Wilson was never hindering his team. When you put the numbers up, his numbers compare favorably to the guys we consider elite NFL QBs. When you watch him play, you see the definite it factor. The Seahawks scored on 40.7% of their offensive possessions, good for 5th in the league. (Behind Denver 47.5%, San Diego 44.9%, Green Bay 40.9%, and New England 40.8%). An average game manager QB doesn't put up those numbers. A special QB does. Anyone discounting Wilson for not being a gunslinging superstar is missing the point, he's doing what you need to do at Quarterback, not what you should never have to do because the team is garbage.

[oochymp 2,393]

 

^This. He's not a prolific type, and won't ever be, and BC....don't ever compare Wilson to Ben, again. Just dumb.

 

it's really not that outlandish, here are Wilson's numbers compared to Roethlisberger's first two seasons (with averages since Roethlisberger didn't play 16 games in either of his first two seasons)

 

Wilson: 509/800 (avg: 15.9/25) 63.6%, 6475 yards (202.3 y/g) 52 TDs (1.6 td/g) 19 INTs (.59 int/g)

BigBen: 364/536 (avg: 14/20.6) 64.7%, 4942 yards (190.1 y/g) 34 TDs (1.3 td/g) 20 INTs (.77 int/g)

 

Both made it to the playoffs in their first two seasons, winning the Super Bowl in their second and both had very strong supporting casts

 

those were certainly not Roethlisberger's best years (as you would expect from the first two) it's always hard to project players after two seasons so I can understand some hesitance to say that Wilson will be as good as Roethlisberger long term, but you can't say that the comparison to Roethlisberger's early years is 'just dumb'

[blotsfan 2,112]

I don't know if Wilson is top 5 yet, but I think he will be and its ridiculous to say he hardly effected the game. Seattle's defense played great but if Wilson didn't step up, Seattle doesn't play as dominant.

[BC 331]

 

Wilson doesn't turn the ball over unlike Kaepernick with his idiocy

Unless you watched the NFCCG in which both guys were trying to lose the game. lol

 

Well the NFL two best defenses were out there on the field so...there's that. Lord knows Russell turns the ball over in practice every now and then...

[GA_Eagle 595]

 

 

 

^This. He's not a prolific type, and won't ever be, and BC....don't ever compare Wilson to Ben, again. Just dumb.

 

it's really not that outlandish, here are Wilson's numbers compared to Roethlisberger's first two seasons (with averages since Roethlisberger didn't play 16 games in either of his first two seasons)

 

Wilson: 509/800 (avg: 15.9/25) 63.6%, 6475 yards (202.3 y/g) 52 TDs (1.6 td/g) 19 INTs (.59 int/g)

BigBen: 364/536 (avg: 14/20.6) 64.7%, 4942 yards (190.1 y/g) 34 TDs (1.3 td/g) 20 INTs (.77 int/g)

 

Both made it to the playoffs in their first two seasons, winning the Super Bowl in their second and both had very strong supporting casts

 

those were certainly not Roethlisberger's best years (as you would expect from the first two) it's always hard to project players after two seasons so I can understand some hesitance to say that Wilson will be as good as Roethlisberger long term, but you can't say that the comparison to Roethlisberger's early years is 'just dumb'

Was about to sign on to say roughly the same. Wilson's supporting cast may not have needed him to do anything special to win this game but that doesn't mean he won't be awesome. Outside of the size and maybe speed difference between the two, Ben and Wilson's games are remarkably similar, especially when just comparing their first two seasons.

[DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241]

Russell Wilson joins a select list of elite QB's who have made it to a super bowl in their first two years. The other guys had pretty good careers all things considered (Dan Marino, Kurt Warner, Ben Roethlisberger). I feel like people discount Wilson simply because he has good teammates. Peyton always had good teammates, Brady has had hall of fame semifinalists crowding his defenses. The only years the Packers and Saints explosive offenses pulled off championships is when the defenses were matching suit.

 

Wilson was never hindering his team. When you put the numbers up, his numbers compare favorably to the guys we consider elite NFL QBs. When you watch him play, you see the definite it factor. The Seahawks scored on 40.7% of their offensive possessions, good for 5th in the league. (Behind Denver 47.5%, San Diego 44.9%, Green Bay 40.9%, and New England 40.8%). An average game manager QB doesn't put up those numbers. A special QB does. Anyone discounting Wilson for not being a gunslinging superstar is missing the point, he's doing what you need to do at Quarterback, not what you should never have to do because the team is garbage.

This doesn't really say much. Only two teams offensively started drives closer to the apposing endzone then the Seahawks.

Edited February 4, 2014 by DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F

[Favre4Ever+ 4,476]

Lol at Green Bay being so high on that list.

[DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241]

 

In no way shape or form did Wilson yesterday prove he's an elite QB.

 

In his place, would Manning, Brady, Rodgers, or Brees have had to prove anything? I feel like we're discounting Wilson's skillset because defense and special teams were so good. This thread seems to be operating under the assumption that Wilson is no more than a Trent Dilfer or Brad Johnson simply because QB heroics weren't needed to win.

 

I think some are also forgetting the dude is in his 2nd year. How long does it take most QBs to really enter their prime? 3, 4, 5 years?

 

 

I'm not at all arguing against Wilson being a talented QB. My position on him hasn't changed since page 1. I'm just arguing against the idea that he's a top 5 QB.

[Guest Phailadelphia]

 

 

In no way shape or form did Wilson yesterday prove he's an elite QB.

 

In his place, would Manning, Brady, Rodgers, or Brees have had to prove anything? I feel like we're discounting Wilson's skillset because defense and special teams were so good. This thread seems to be operating under the assumption that Wilson is no more than a Trent Dilfer or Brad Johnson simply because QB heroics weren't needed to win.

 

I think some are also forgetting the dude is in his 2nd year. How long does it take most QBs to really enter their prime? 3, 4, 5 years?

 

 

I'm not at all arguing against Wilson being a talented QB. My position on him hasn't changed since page 1. I'm just arguing against the idea that he's a top 5 QB.

 

 

Ah, my bad then. I didn't go that far back into the thread.

[Attyla the Hawk 197]

Wilson is perfect for Seattle.

 

He can and has carried the team when required. We just don't require it often.

 

And that's due to design, not luck. If Seattle's team philosophy was more generic, we wouldn't have invested the draft capital and FA money on the defense. We'd have given Wilson weapons and thrown it 40 times a game.

 

Brady, Rivers, Manning ... none of those QBs would be averaging 30 attempts for this team, because we don't WANT to be that kind of team. We need a QB who is capable of being money on a very limited number of opportunities usually in situations where a pass is required. That's not easy and journeymen type QBs can't do that.

 

The fact is, Seattle spent it's resources on the defensive side of the ball. And I'm not really going out on a limb in saying it was resources well spent. There will come a time when Wilson is required to do more because we won't be able to keep spending the resources so lop sidedly.

 

Do I think he's elite? No. He's in his second year in the league. He's going to get a lot better. He's been growing by leaps and bounds in every discernable way. He is not simply capable of being efficient. He is dynamic and he is a very skilled passer. He was without question the better QB this Sunday. I've rewatched the Super Bowl and Wilson was heavily pressured. He simply dealt with it as he has all year. With extreme cool and poise and maddening elusiveness. So many of those critical completions were absolutely due to his unique ability to extend plays and turn sacks and incompletions into 3rd down conversions.

 

In that manner, I see him as elite. He's just elite in a different way. Not unlike this team -- we value things that don't show up on stat sheets. Good tackling. Hard hitting. Avoiding negative plays. Turning negative plays into positive plays. Attacking and swarming the ball. Playing with intensity. None of these things give fantasy adherents a hard on. But they are capable of making teams a champion.

 

Wilson may or may not be elite. But his record against Brady, Manning, Brees and Rodgers is 5-0. That kind of record is elite. I wouldn't want any of those four instead of Wilson for what this team requires. We need a guy who can do more with less, but carry us if needed.

[Glanvilles Grits 142]

I don't see Russell Wilson as even a top option at quarterback, much more so an "elite" quarterback (ah, the ever dreaded E word that there's no pure definition for)

 

Wilson can certainly go out and compete on Sundays. He's absolutely perfect for the Seahawks, who as Pete Carroll has beaten into our brains is an offense that concentrates on taking what the defense gives them from week to week. Wilson is accurate, for the most part anyway, and he's not a "me" type of quarterback. He's a guy who's alright with handing the ball off 30-40 times if he's asked to do so. I can't help but point out that Russell Wilson absolutely benefits from having Marshawn Lynch in the backfield. As much as teams have to key on Lynch, that opens up a lot for Wilson.

 

With any quarterback, I think his best tool is his legs. He does it the right way, make the reads and then run. He's not a one read and run quarterback. He runs the football to throw, not the other way around like other athletic quarterbacks in the league.

 

On another subject with Russell Wilson, I believe he's going to be due some money next season. He's not going to get the top dollar money like Matt Ryan and Joe Flacco received, at least not from the Seahawks. Why? Because Pete Carroll has built this team to survive without Wilson. They don't need him to remain at the top of their game. They can get an Alex Smith type who takes care of the football and win, because of the defense. Not to mention, the same year they need to make sure Earl Thomas and Richard Sherman (among others) get their big contracts. Wilson has no leverage with the Seahawks right now, and I doubt unless we see him put up ridiculous numbers that he will get that leverage.

[blotsfan 2,112]

The PR disaster of losing Russel Wilson means he will never leave and has leverage. Wilson isn't asked to do a lot, but he's not just a game manager. It takes a special talent to do that 4th and 7 against the 49ers.

[seanbrock 1,684]

I don't understand why Wilson is being knocked for having Lynch. Every elite QB benefits from their weapons. There isn't a QB in the league who can do it all by himself. This year due to injuries and losing players in the offseason Tom Brady had to lean on his run game and defense to win games and get the Patriots in the playoffs and ultimately a home playoff game. It was one of Brady's worst seasons statistically in years, but he worked with what he had, made a lot of plays when needed and the Patriots went to the conference championship game with a severely depleted roster. Russell Wilson was in a much different situation because the Seahawks were relatively healthy this year but he still worked with what he had. He was efficient and when he was called upon he answered the bell more often than not on his way to a Super Bowl win. I have no doubt that if he was in an offense that required him to spread the field and pass in the pocket that he could put up the 4,500 yards and 30+ TD's a year that is considered elite by many. There isn't an offense that he can't run in the NFL. He's smart and that's probably the biggest thing. You can tell the guy know's what he's doing out there and is very mature. He's a 2nd year player.

 

 

Oh and nobody on Wilson's offensive line except Unger graded out in the top 30 at this position according to PFF rankings. None of his receivers were anything special this year either, so while Wilson might have Lynch on offense he doesn't much else. A lot of young QB's in his situation probably turn the ball over much more than he did.

Edited February 8, 2014 by seanbrock

[BwareDWare94 723]

The PR disaster of losing Russel Wilson means he will never leave and has leverage. Wilson isn't asked to do a lot, but he's not just a game manager. It takes a special talent to do that 4th and 7 against the 49ers.

 

Not it doesn't. He flung up a prayer and it somehow got caught.

[Sarge+ 3,436]

That wasn't a prayer. Kearse was open and it was a pretty good throw.

 

If you want to see prayers, see: Flacco, Joe. Entire 2013 postseason.

Edited February 8, 2014 by Sarge

[oochymp 2,393]

 

The PR disaster of losing Russel Wilson means he will never leave and has leverage. Wilson isn't asked to do a lot, but he's not just a game manager. It takes a special talent to do that 4th and 7 against the 49ers.

 

Not it doesn't. He flung up a prayer and it somehow got caught.

 

not to mention the 49ers jumped offsides so he had a free play

[BC 331]

 

The PR disaster of losing Russel Wilson means he will never leave and has leverage. Wilson isn't asked to do a lot, but he's not just a game manager. It takes a special talent to do that 4th and 7 against the 49ers.

 

Not it doesn't. He flung up a prayer and it somehow got caught

 

He seems to do successful "prayers" often. The only reason we're having this conversation is because we have a point generating defense. And when that isn't the case, we see what happens.

Edited February 9, 2014 by BC

[BwareDWare94 723]

 

 

The PR disaster of losing Russel Wilson means he will never leave and has leverage. Wilson isn't asked to do a lot, but he's not just a game manager. It takes a special talent to do that 4th and 7 against the 49ers.

 

Not it doesn't. He flung up a prayer and it somehow got caught

 

He seems to do successful "prayers" often. The only reason we're having this conversation is because we have a point generating defense. And when that isn't the case, we see what happens.

 

 

Every decent QB has these highlight videos. My argument is that he isn't elite, and not necessarily top 10. I have him ranked at 8, though I'd probably consider my 9 and 10 QBs over him (Romo, Ryan). He wasn't that vital in the Super Bowl, or the Super Bowl run, for that matter, and his last 9 games were quite bad, considering how good many people consider him. He isn't there, yet. Let him get there before we crown him and act like he's some excellent NFL player. He isn't. He's good, but he's not what you and many other people (not necessarily at this site) think he is.

[SteelersNation36 128]

Didn't we all have this same conversation about Big Ben at one point? He may not be elite yet(which I agree with) but I think 1-2 years down the line when/if he's asked to do more, he'll be great.

Edited February 9, 2014 by SteelersNation36

[blotsfan 2,112]

 

 

 

 

The PR disaster of losing Russel Wilson means he will never leave and has leverage. Wilson isn't asked to do a lot, but he's not just a game manager. It takes a special talent to do that 4th and 7 against the 49ers.

Not it doesn't. He flung up a prayer and it somehow got caught.

not to mention the 49ers jumped offsides so he had a free play

But he was able to do that when the defense had an unfair advantage.

[oochymp 2,393]

 

 

 

The PR disaster of losing Russel Wilson means he will never leave and has leverage. Wilson isn't asked to do a lot, but he's not just a game manager. It takes a special talent to do that 4th and 7 against the 49ers.

Not it doesn't. He flung up a prayer and it somehow got caught.

not to mention the 49ers jumped offsides so he had a free play

But he was able to do that when the defense had an unfair advantage.

 

what unfair advantage? if you're referring to the offsides as an unfair advantage, look at the play again:

the 49ers dline didn't rush at all after getting caught offsides, so jumping offsides gave them no advantage

[AL_Royalty 489]

 

Let me put it this way. Brady, Brees, and Rodgers can all carry their teams to the Super Bowl. Could Wilson have done that if the Seahawks had a mediocre defense?

 

Why does he have to be compared to those 3?

 

Because those three guys are undeniably elite, as is Manning. That's your list of elite guys right there.

 

elite — a group of people considered (by others or themselves) to be the best in a particular society or category, esp. because of their power, talent, or wealth.

 

I don't think anyone is saying that Wilson isn't a good QB, but saying that he's elite is just silly. That word gets thrown around so loosely these days that it seems like anyone who has a good season or even a good run of games is thrown into the conversation. If any of those four guys retired today, they'd be in the hall in five years. Wilson would just be a guy who had promise and a potentially prosperous career on the way with a Super Bowl ring under his belt. As of now, he's never going to have a problem getting a table in Seattle's hottest restaurants, but he's not on the level of those four guys. They are the elite, and this kid still has a lot to prove.

 

The guy's entering his third season, and while he's definitely in the up-and-coming class of super talented QBs, he is in no way elite.

[Glanvilles Grits 142]

The PR disaster of losing Russel Wilson means he will never leave and has leverage. Wilson isn't asked to do a lot, but he's not just a game manager. It takes a special talent to do that 4th and 7 against the 49ers.

 

I'm not saying he's just a game manager. I'm simply saying that the Seahawks are built to move on if they need to. The defense is such a force that for the first time in a while, we see a team that can succeed with a quarterback that can just limit mistakes. Make no mistake about it though, I believe Russell Wilson is one hell of a quarterback that can make plays. He's going to continue to get better and grow into his potential, I'm just not really believing that he will command that big $115-120M mark with the Seahawks.

 

I don't understand why Wilson is being knocked for having Lynch. Every elite QB benefits from their weapons. There isn't a QB in the league who can do it all by himself. This year due to injuries and losing players in the offseason Tom Brady had to lean on his run game and defense to win games and get the Patriots in the playoffs and ultimately a home playoff game. It was one of Brady's worst seasons statistically in years, but he worked with what he had, made a lot of plays when needed and the Patriots went to the conference championship game with a severely depleted roster. Russell Wilson was in a much different situation because the Seahawks were relatively healthy this year but he still worked with what he had. He was efficient and when he was called upon he answered the bell more often than not on his way to a Super Bowl win. I have no doubt that if he was in an offense that required him to spread the field and pass in the pocket that he could put up the 4,500 yards and 30+ TD's a year that is considered elite by many. There isn't an offense that he can't run in the NFL. He's smart and that's probably the biggest thing. You can tell the guy know's what he's doing out there and is very mature. He's a 2nd year player.

 

 

Oh and nobody on Wilson's offensive line except Unger graded out in the top 30 at this position according to PFF rankings. None of his receivers were anything special this year either, so while Wilson might have Lynch on offense he doesn't much else. A lot of young QB's in his situation probably turn the ball over much more than he did.

 

If this is directed towards my comments on Wilson not having leverage for the big money, or because I stated the fact that he had Lynch in the backfield: I'm not knocking him. Explaining that Lynch is in the backfield is a simple explanation that the Seahawks are more than a quarterback at this point. Could that change as next season gets underway and moves on? Most definitely. Any QB with a running back like Lynch in the backfield is going to see more success in the play action any time he wants to move from the pocket.. (Lets omit the Vikings, what a train wreck!)

 

 

Russell Wilson is a great quarterback, he's not in my elite group listing yet though.

[Attyla the Hawk 197]

He'll get that 15 to 20 range. He's worth it.

 

He can hoist the team on his back if need be. Whether by arm or by legs -- usually both. Seattle is a balanced team, and in games where Lynch doesn't hit the 50 yard mark, our win percentage is very good. Wilson is central to that.

 

Wilson does the things necessary to win. That metric changes from game to game. He doesn't lose games. Realistically, in the games we have lost, it's really been the defense that loses leads that Wilson bestows on them. The Super Bowl was a microcosm of Wilson's body of work to date. He is efficient, he plays to our strengths and he is a difference maker when those strengths (defense or running game) falter.

 

Watching Peyton in that game, I remarked that Wilson doesn't throw those two picks Manning did. He is poised enough to eat the ball or scramble and extend. He is so much more than a stat line and from the boots on the ground level watching him day to day, it's really easy to see his value.

 

Wilson can be whatever our team requires him to be. And he doesn't just accept it. He wants to be that kind of QB. There aren't a lot of QBs who can embrace that kind of role, and flip the switch and dominate as a passer in the course of a game plan gone awry. I don't even know if he'll want to take that kind of salary if it puts the team in peril under the cap. If he does sign at a discount, I expect it'll be nearly fully guaranteed.