Sexual Misconduct: Guilty Until Proven Innocent; Personally Ruined Even if Proven Innocent

[BwareDWare94 723]

Thread inspired by the suicide of accused Kentucky state rep Dan Johnson.

 

Questions:

 

1. What percentage of these sexual misconduct accusations floating around men among politicians, media members, high ranking company officials, and celebrities, are legitimate?

 

--my rough guess: 65%. There's no way that none of these are bought and paid for, or that there aren't a percentage of horrible people making accusations out of spite. However, I do feel that a majority of them are real and hope that when proof is there, it is found.

 

2. Why do we allow the media to control the narrative of guilty until proven innocent?

 

--my opinion: because we're pathetic sheeple obeying the Telescreen.

 

3. What is considered sexual misconduct?

 

--my answer: Violent assault is black and white, however, drunk sex is not rape. As far as consent is concerned there is no consent checklist though I think in today's world men must make a habit of getting a definitive verbal Yes in some way before sex. Harassment is inappropriate comments, mostly--which can be made in many ways and through many mediums. If it's physical with absolutely no consent, it's assault.

 

4. What doesn't fall under sexual misconduct?

 

--my answer: Sorry ladies, but having someone you're not attracted to make a pass at you is not sexual harassment if they aren't inappropriate. Even persistence that never reaches inappropriateness is not sexual harassment, because women pursue after a No as well. Drunk sex is not sexual misconduct, as I said before.

 

5. How do we keep potentially innocent lives from being ruined?

 

My answer: media outlets must issue or air public retractions that include details of the proof of innocence or proof of reasonable doubt daily for a week on the front page or at the beginning of the broadcast. No hiding it somehow out of spite or political purposes. That's about the best we can do.

 

We live in dangerous times and we have victims on both sides of this shit show. What do the rest of you think? Please answer the questions.

Edited December 14, 2017 by BwareDWare94

[blotsfan 2,112]

So, I have work today, with a holiday luncheon so I don't even really get a lunch break. Later today I am meeting with friends before seeing Star Wars, after which, I assume I will be super-hyped from Star Wars.

 

My point to all this is that I probably won't be able to do a detailed response to this for a bit, so I shall leave you with this:

 

Bware, you're an idiot and you have 0 idea what you're talking about.

[BwareDWare94 723]

LOL. Enjoy your time in the pitchfork mob as you refuse to use a little common sense and think, "gee, maybe we shouldn't just assume guilt 100% of the time."

Edited December 14, 2017 by BwareDWare94

[RazorStar 4,025]

The thing is, I don't think assault victims are exactly likely to come out with these stories. Either because it puts them in the spotlight, or out fear of their assaulter. The only reason this is all coming out at once is because someone popular and famous got fingered, and got the ball rolling. So if there are going to be accusations, I'm going to take the side of the victim, as much I can. I still believe that people are innocent until proven guilty, and if the charges are dropped (and some sort of settlement isn't involved) or if the accused is found not guilty in a court of law, that's enough proof of innocence for me.

 

The thing that makes it hard to say an accused is innocent is when multiple people come out and mention their misgivings. Louis C.K., Kevin Spacey, Harvey Weinstein, all of those guys had lots of people come out and admit they were assaulted by them. The thing about the court of public opinion is that it is fickle, and will often burn a house down before it's deemed condemned. That's the risk of the globalized, info at our fingertips world we live in. All of the shit rises.

 

In any case, I'll give a try at answering your questions.

 

1. If I had to give a percentage? 80-90%. Most of the people who become politicians, high ranking CEO's, actors and what not lack empathy for others. Because of this, they are far more likely to do things that make people uncomfortable, and push towards outright assault and rape. There are going to be some false accusations, because there are horrible people who would do that, but the thing is, it puts the accuser in the limelight as well, and make them miserable because the media is a merciless beast.

 

2. I find that a lot Americans (and a fair number of Canadians, I'll be real) have too much faith in an unbiased media. While that's simply not true because media is a business and all businesses have inherent biases due to their responsibility towards making money. So they see something on their news channel of preference and go "yeah, I could believe that." And then they do. Simple. Doesn't help that the CNN's and the FOX's of the world forego the fact checking part of the news to get it to their viewers first.

 

3 and 4. The concept of sexual assault comes down to consent. If your mind is addled by drugs or alcohol, you cannot consent. If you are in the age of minority, you cannot consent to sexual acts. If you say no, you are not consenting. Most of the time, it is very simple. A large problem is the world is shifting, and back say 50 years ago, or even 25 years ago, women didn't really have a way to say yes to sex. They were expected to refuse any advances outright, and let the guy try to court and impress them first. And since they don't have a way to say yes, they don't have a way to say no either. because the same actions that lead to refusal of sexual acts are the same actions that lead to acceptance of sexual acts. You can easily see why this leads to a lot of confusion on what consent is, what harassment is, and all that. Harassment in general is a whole different bag of worms, but the rules should be pretty simple for men and women in power. If someone is your subordinate, you should not advance on them sexually. Period. If you hold power over someone, you put them in a dangerous situation where they may not be able to afford to refuse you. Pastors, Police, Politicians, Directors and Producers, Bosses, Teachers... just don't.

 

5. How do we protect people from being accused by the court of public opinion? You can't. I'd rather have 1000 false accusations be proven false in a court of law if it means 10 people who were abused feel safe enough to speak out and press charges against their abuser. And for those people falsely accused? Seek legal counsel, and get found innocent or try and get your accuser to drop their charges. People will drag your name and reputation through the muck, but if one is truly innocent then they need to fight to prove it. Not kill themselves because they're afraid of the backlash.

[Omerta+ 1,206]

Honestly, I've been dreading this thread for a while now. It seemed inevitable after Kevin Spacey and Harvey Weinstein. I've been thinking about it off and on since then, before I answer I'm going to make sure my thoughts are in order because this is one of those topics where people need to be very clear about how they feel, because when you split hairs in a topic like this you find yourself barely condoning rape or barely defending the victim. Neither one of which is right.

 

Also, I will leave it at this before I reply with my answers. Any of you who are being openly dismissive are idiots. If you don't think this is possible of happening at all, then you're a moron and you need to have your head checked. This is a great topic, because it is something that needs to be discussed not necessarily on a football forum, but it definitely needs to have its day in an open court and Society. It is terrible that somebody would rape another human being, it is equally terrible to accuse somebody you know is innocent of such a heinous act.

[Turry 755]

What I want to know what is bware defintion of "inappropriate" is. What you might think is apporopriate the girl your hitting on might not think it is at all. Also if your constantly hitting on a girl and she's keeps on rejecting you. Take the L and move on. It's lame it's childish it's annoying it's not charming. How would you like it if someone ask you to borrow money constantly but you kept saying no? Imagine that but worse.

[BwareDWare94 723]

Inappropriate is inappropriate. It doesn't change based on the person lol

 

And I have been pursued after multiple clear no's, which is why I pointed out that it happens to both sexes.

Edited December 14, 2017 by BwareDWare94

[Favre4Ever+ 4,476]

 

Bware, you're an idiot and you have 0 idea what you're talking about.

 

Is this one of those posts ironically mocking me like you tried to do in the shoutbox -- or are you just a hypocrite?

[Turry 755]

Inappropriate is inappropriate. It doesn't change based on the person lol

And I have been pursued after multiple clear no's, which is why I pointed out that it happens to both sexes.

Of course it changes on the person are you serious ?

[OSUViking 505]

This may sound shitty... I think there may be truth to Danny Masterson's accusations because he is a Scientologist. I only say that because it really seems that that organization black mails it's prominent members, so I naturally feel he has something he's hiding. It's 100% unfair, but I can't help but get the feeling.

 

I think 65% legitimacy is very low. I'd imagine higher than that are true stories. What that number is, I don't know. It's absolutely laughable to say that there aren't people out there who would take advantage of the climate of people coming forward. I don't think they even approach a large number of these cases, but it's something to keep in mind because a lot of people are shitbags.

 

If I'm ever in a position of power best believe I'm going to be on my most neutral behavior possible with everyone. First, don't want people to think I'm about that life where sex is currency, but also because it's simply not worth the risk that a joke or ignorant comment (as in, no idea what their boundaries with those are) is construed as harassment.

Edited December 14, 2017 by OSUViking

[BJORN 679]

Right now it seems like women are batting 1.000 in Hollywood, Bware, so I am not sure where you are getting your numbers.

[Omerta+ 1,206]

Okay, so now for my thoughts on this. I have thought about it I want to be very deliberate and my support of the victims of rape, sexual assault, and to an extent sexual harassment. I will get in line to an extent later. I would also like to use this little Preamble as a way of saying that I am not going to be answering in the matter of fact ways that be where has outlined, because I don't believe it's as simple as that answering anyone in completely paints an inaccurate picture.

 

I will say that I believe that there are some Liars out there. As to what percentage I'm not sure, that's purely a guess I guess if I had to pin one down I would say 80% of them are legitimate, at least that sounds like a number I believe to be fair. One in five, yeah I can stand by that number. That being said I would also like to take this opportunity to point out the ambiguity of something as subjective as sexual harassment, and explain my to an extent, earlier. When there are no clear definitions for what it is, and it can vary person to person. What objective metric, do you have to measure sexual harassment? I think this is where huge spread in the numbers can actually be valid. If I were to walk up to a woman and say, that dress really accentuates your features. Some would say thank you, someone look at me and not say anything, my wife would hit me, and some would think I'm the most despicable misogynistic, piece of shit in the universe. Let's take something a bit more innocuous, and say something like, hey you were looking like a million bucks today. You're going to have those people out there who are saying oh, well you're just objectifying women. Ironically enough, some misconstrue this is sexual harassment. In my opinion the first time it isn't. If you pay her another compliment, and she rebuffs yet again. It's time to move on. That's when it becomes harassment, she's made her intentions known, she's made it clear that she has no interest, so it's time for you to take the loss and move on. That being said if she goes to HR and tries to get you fired over the first incident, I think that's complete and total bullshit. That's the kind of things that we have to look out for in that regard.

 

As to why we believe it, it's because we have to. We're afraid, as a society we are afraid of being labeled, and have our so-called privilege called out. I don't believe in the patriarchy, I don't believe in all of this Millennial crap that everybody likes to Pedal as far as only men can Basalt, and only men can do this, because we're in the position of power. Wrong, anybody can be assaulted. I think the reason we're so quick to konvict and the court of public opinion, is because people call you these names that really don't mean anything like misogynist, privileged white male, part of a patriarchal regime, and all of these other things that are supposed to make us feel bad about ourselves. We would no longer have these issues, if people had an ounce of self-awareness and really didn't give a damn what people thought about them.

 

As far as what sexual misconduct is, to meet anything violent with sexual overtones, is definitely misconduct. If you use a position of power or authority, to leverage sexual favors. That is assault if you use any sort of drugs are incapacitating, and mind-altering methods to have sex, that's assault. Now the caveat with that is that if both parties are drunk, in my opinion it isn't rape. Unless she's like black out drunk like to the point of being passed out, and you're just kind of buzzing, that's definitely rape. That said if both of you are over the legal limit to be called drunk I really have a hard time saying it's rape.

 

How do we protect people, put our feelings aside and let the justice system do what it's designed to do. I disagree with razor on one fundamental element of his reply, or I would have just quoted him. I believe that the presumption of innocence is Paramount to the legal system in this country, in any valid legal system in the world. If you're not comfortable speaking out, there are many ways to do it anonymously, and there are many legal Avenues you can do to protect yourself from your antagonist. I'm sorry that they do not feel comfortable coming forward, but I won't condemn an innocent man to prison, or even have him lose his job for something that is not 100% proven. I think when you start having to prove your innocence instead of your guild we're going to run into a big problem here, and that is why I'm so angry with the situation. It seems as though that an allegation is enough to get a man fired. How do we know somebody isn't paying blackmail? How do we know these aren't lies? I don't even know that this isn't a vendetta? How do we know this is not a way to get up for it in the movies? How do we know any of these things? Not saying we should assume any of these things either, but the benefit of the doubt should always be given to the accused and have the burden of proof fall on the accuser. That's our justice system is set up, and that's the way it should work. I don't really give a good goddamn how anybody feels about anything, especially this. Everybody wants to get caught up in their feelings and that's fine, you're more than welcome to. That being said your feelings are absolutely meaningless, and know what is obliged to care about him. Considering how meaningless they really are, we should not be trying to have people hung out to dry with something that isn't proven yet.

 

I would also like to say, that if you are indeed found guilty of this, it should be a 35 year minimum sentence. That's only because the government won't kill you for it. I would love to go back in time where a man could be killed for rape. I think that's an appropriate penalty. I think instead of wasting taxpayers dollars, I think you should be taken out back and shot in the forehead. Any man who just decides he can up and forcibly have sex with somebody against their will, is the most vile loathsome piece of garbage on the planet.

 

I think what we're saying in Hollywood, is four years of skeletons in the closet coming out to bite people. I wish these people would have come out sooner so that way there would be proof of their actions, but I guess when you have enough corroborating stories that's about as good as evidence as you're going to get at this point. I will also say though, I think there are a few Liars thrown in there from time to time, we're going to sue for punitive damages. I don't think that the majority of these women are lying, I think they waited until there was strength in numbers, which was kind of a dumb strategy but I guess it makes sense from up evolutionary, and biological imperative to survive. It really damages your credibility when somebody at that moment in time says they were raped in recent memory, and then you say oh yeah it happened to me 35 years ago too. I have a hard time believing that. But in the case of people like Harvey Weinstein When It's Time After Time After Time, I guess I can believe at least most of them are telling the truth. Which is more than enough for me to want his ass dead.

Edited December 14, 2017 by Omerta

[Thanatos 2,847]

The idea that false rape reports are some huge prevalent problem is a talking point. Not necessarily from one side of the political aisle, but still, just a talking point that has been proven to be false via studies and statistics.

 

65%? 80%? Yall are way way low. According to multiple studies done on the issue, the answer is somewhere between 2% and 10%, with the real value likely around 5%. (Some of the studies that had 10% as the answer included baseless accusations, where the accuser was not lying but merely that the actions involved did not warrant a rape charge, but a lesser one).

 

A rape allegation, therefore, has roughly the same chance of being false as any other reported crime, (2-8% according to the FBI, for crimes on average). This is not some thing that is specific to rape reports.

 

However, one can certainly make the argument that a false rape report does more against the victim than the report of a false theft or assault, given the stigma associated with rape over basically any other crime save perhaps murder.

 

The issue to me is what Razor hit on. If one woman comes forward and claims sexual assault and no one else shows up, then I don't think you have anything credible there to say the guy's career should be over. I'd view him with a wary eye, but I wouldn't be against voting for him in public office if there is no evidence and its simply a he said/she said kind of thing.

 

However, when that number goes up, and more and more women come forward with credible stories against the man in question, then to me that qualifies as all the evidence needed to ruin someone's career. They shouldn't get to have a career, frankly. That goes for both sides of the aisle here, Al Franken and Roy Moore. I'm sure that in a case like Bill Cosby, there are a couple of those women hopping on the gravy train to attentionville. It happens in a high profile case like that. But when there are that many accusers, it doesn't really matter. That guy is for sure guilty.

 

Look, this is the same thing as the welfare questions. Yes, some people report falsely, a very small minority. But its not some huge problem as people are making it out to be.

 

So to answer your questions directly:

 

1. 92-98%. Backed up by stats and figures and studies. Never seen one that has a third of rape allegations labeled as false, not even close. That is simply wishful thinking.

 

2. This is what is known as a leading question. However, the media does this for many many things, not just rape allegations. If you get accused of any crime, the media will put your name up there, but if they do run a retraction it will be a blip on the screen. The media needs to not be so quick to the gun here. Like I said, Roy Moore and Weinstein and shit like them? Plaster their names on there. One guy gets accused out of the blue by one person? If you're gonna report on that, make sure to give both sides and treat him fairly.

 

3. Drunk sex is absolutely rape if only one party is drunk. If both are, I agree, they made a poor decision, but to charge the man with rape makes as little sense as charging the woman with rape. Any unwanted touching of an intimate area, or continued unwanted touching after being asked to stop, (for example, constantly touching their shoulder or w/e). Just keep your hands to yourself, please.

 

4. Children on a playground playing tag who happen to accidentally grab an intimate area should not be going on some list or have anything at all happen to them besides possibly sitting them down and calmly explaining why they should avoid that area, depending on how old they are. I do agree that catcalling isn't sexual misconduct, but it is harassment and if you do it you're a jerk.

 

5. Listen to the women who come forward and believe them instead of giving them death threats and assuming they are lying, as has happened to the women in the Roy Moore case. On the other side, I kinda already addressed it, 1 accusation with no evidence means to keep your eye on the guy, but you can't report it as if he is already guilty.

Edited December 14, 2017 by Thanatos

[BwareDWare94 723]

^I did mean drunk sex as in both people are drunk, just to clarify. Soberly sleeping with a drunk person is a major indictment of character, in my opinion.

 

As for your statistics, I firmly believe 2-8% in cases among standard citizens. Among celebrities and high-profile men? You can't convince me that there isn't a significant jump in false or baseless accusations. I think we can connect the dots on that one.

Edited December 14, 2017 by BwareDWare94

[blotsfan 2,112]

Among celebrities and high-profile men? You can't convince me that there isn't a significant jump in false or baseless accusations. I think we can connect the dots on that one.

That people who have a lot of power and influence over peoples' careers take advantage of that power to get what they want?

[.AirMcNair. 1,232]

^I did mean drunk sex as in both people are drunk, just to clarify. Soberly sleeping with a drunk person is a major indictment of character, in my opinion.

 

As for your statistics, I firmly believe 2-8% in cases among standard citizens. Among celebrities and high-profile men? You can't convince me that there isn't a significant jump in false or baseless accusations. I think we can connect the dots on that one.

 

You could very easily argue the rate of false accusations is even lower just because people in power are more likely to commit these acts without fear of being reported due to said power(well..they were before this breakthrough). Weinstein did this for how many years without any fear of repercussion?

 

Power and money goes far in protecting yourself.

Edited December 14, 2017 by .AirMcNair.

[BwareDWare94 723]

Or so they were years ago. Now with our pitchfork media egging on a society that's willing to crucify anybody over a small amount of information with no backing evidence, being in a place of power makes on an easy target. Which in itself is a good thing in many ways, but how does an innocent person recover from such accusations? Good luck. We're headed downhill and gaining momentum, at this point.

[.AirMcNair. 1,232]

Or so they were years ago. Now with our pitchfork media egging on a society that's willing to crucify anybody over a small amount of information with no backing evidence, being in a place of power makes on an easy target. Which in itself is a good thing in many ways, but how does an innocent person recover from such accusations? Good luck. We're headed downhill and gaining momentum, at this point.

Who are all these falsely accused people in power that's brought this subject up for you?

[BwareDWare94 723]

65%? Try 10%, maybe 20% if you're lucky.

The nfl net one is definitely bogus.

 

10 or 20 percent? Get the fuck out of here if you aren't going to contribute to the discussion.

Who are all these falsely accused people in power that's brought this subject up for you?

 

I guess we'll never know, will we? Better ruin the life of every accused person and just assume they're all guilty.

[.AirMcNair. 1,232]

 

10 or 20 percent? Get the fuck out of here if you aren't going to contribute to the discussion.

 

I guess we'll never know, will we? Better ruin the life of every accused person and just assume they're all guilty.

 

So there's yet to be a single case of false accusations and you're worried it's a widespread problem?

[BwareDWare94 723]

 

So there's yet to be a single case of false accusations and you're worried it's a widespread problem?

 

I already said we don't know, but you're presenting the question as if they're all true, which obviously isn't the case, either.

[seanbrock 1,684]

Guilty until proven innocent has been a problem in pretty much every aspect in the criminal justice system for a while now. Just look at the bail system. Basically if you're poor you sit in jail until you get a trial which can be like 1-3 months so even if you're found innocent you still serve jail time in a lot of cases.

 

I think with the whole sexual misconduct it's a mixed bag. I see your point and I do think some of the accusations are bullshit but at the same time a lot of them have been proven to be true and I think in some industries it is pervasive. I think I usually tend to believe people who fight it but not in every case. You have to look at them individually but I do think that some people don't and that could turn into a big issue.

[.AirMcNair. 1,232]

 

I already said we don't know, but you're presenting the question as if they're all true, which obviously isn't the case, either.

 

The vast majority who are accused have admitted to doing what was said, the few others just remain entirely silent. How many have fought it?

[Thanatos 2,847]

^I did mean drunk sex as in both people are drunk, just to clarify. Soberly sleeping with a drunk person is a major indictment of character, in my opinion.

 

As for your statistics, I firmly believe 2-8% in cases among standard citizens. Among celebrities and high-profile men? You can't convince me that there isn't a significant jump in false or baseless accusations. I think we can connect the dots on that one.

 

If anything I think its lower when we're talking strictly about celebrities. Like I said, someone like Cosby? Yeah maybe after the first 10 or so came forward, some women came forward who just wanted the attention.

 

But the topic of this thread is preventing innocent people from getting accused of rape and that allegation ruining their careers. And in that context, I absolutely disagree with you, in fact I would bet a lot of money that the false rape percentage is far less than against the average citizen.

 

I think a lot of times women keep silent unless they have a great deal of numbers backing them when we're talking about going after a celebrity. I also feel that given the culture that has been revealed recently, I find it highly unlikely that a guy tripped up just one time. People who would do something like sexually assaulting someone else are going to keep on doing it.

 

Let's name some names here. You're afraid of innocent people being accused of rape and it ruining their careers. Who exactly has recently been accused of rape that is a celebrity and you think they were innocent?

[BwareDWare94 723]

I don't know who I think is innocent or who I think is guilty. I don't think we should jump to conclusions in either direction, though, which is the point of this discussion. We need to teach men how to treat women, but we also need to teach future generations how to treat the accused. We've got a lot of work to do as a society. Can you imagine being accused of some kind of sexual misconduct right now? How would it affect you?