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#1 BwareDWare94

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Posted 10 July 2018 - 03:43 PM

https://www.lifesite...tion-gender-con

 

Seriously, who thought it should be illegal to offer therapy for unwanted same sex attraction? Jesus H fucking tap-dancing Christ. If an individual doesn't want to feel in such a way, they should be able to seek the necessary help needed to try and address it. And if parents want their child to go through said therapy, they should have the right to enroll the child in such therapy unless the child objects. It's really that simple. And yes, medical professionals should be able to advertise any and all services they provide.

Maine is seriously fucked up. Just wait til you hear what "progressives" didn't support earlier on in the article. 

 

:rofl:

 

This whole world is headed for the nearest, highest cliff at this point. 


Edited by BwareDWare94, 10 July 2018 - 03:44 PM.

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#2 Turry

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Posted 10 July 2018 - 05:00 PM

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#3 seanbrock

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Posted 10 July 2018 - 06:07 PM

Idk, I don't like banning things buy don't you think kids might be scared to object to the therapy? I think I wouldn't be opposed to it being available to people who feel they need to do that but I also think it's fucked up to allow parents to forcably subject their children to this which would happen, let's be honest.
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#4 Thanatos

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Posted 10 July 2018 - 06:10 PM

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Who thought it should be illegal? How about basically every single scientific and medical organization in the world?

Conversion therapy is an awful thing to support, no matter what your views are on the subject of homosexuality. It has been shown to cause almost nothing but harm to those who go through it, and leads to an increased rate of suicide among LGBT youth. What's more, normally what is going on here is not someone voluntarily checking themselves in, but someone's parents forcing them to enter into it. If an adult wants to do it on their own, fine, I'm perfectly okay with letting adults make adult decisions.

 

Did you even read the article you're posting, Bware? The ban wasn't even for conversation therapy in general it was for conversion therapy that targeted 18 years and younger. From the second paragraph:

 

LD 912 sought to forbid people from “advertis[ing], offer[ing] or administer[ing] conversion therapy to individuals under 18 years of age,” with “conversion therapy” defined as “practice or treatment that seeks to change an individual's sexual orientation or gender identity.” It contained an exception for clergy, but threatened to suspend or revoke the licenses of medical professionals, school guidance counselors, or school psychologists.

 

This is a backwards ass practice that should be banned from any first world country entirely.


Edited by Thanatos, 10 July 2018 - 06:48 PM.

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#5 blotsfan

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Posted 10 July 2018 - 06:58 PM

Conversion therapy is literally torture. Bware, you are supporting the torture of teenagers.


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#6 OSUViking

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Posted 10 July 2018 - 08:31 PM

Kids are not malleable dolls that parents get to shape to their liking. You throw in the caveat "if the kid objects"... if the kid has reached a point that their parents are suggesting conversion therapy of all things, it's not a healthy home, and it's highly unlikely that they feel safe objecting to their parents demands. 

 

"Unwanted same-sex attraction" sounds a lot like internalized self-hatred from homophobic parents. 


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#7 Omerta

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Posted 10 July 2018 - 09:02 PM

Kids are not malleable dolls that parents get to shape to their liking.


I vehemently disagree with that. That is kind of your job if you're a decent person and parent.

As to the article, it is super slippery imk. What if the kid actually wants to go? If they're being coerced, of course not. If they genuinely do though, can you really deny them? Would you deny a gay kid therapy? It just seems really hard to decide honestly. It just seems like an issue you split hairs between what the kids want versus parents. I DO NOT think the parents should decide at all, but if the kid wants to go it is easy to say the parents force him, but intent is so hard to prove.

Obviously if they're adults they can do what the fuck the want.
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#8 blotsfan

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Posted 10 July 2018 - 09:50 PM

I vehemently disagree with that. That is kind of your job if you're a decent person and parent.

As to the article, it is super slippery imk. What if the kid actually wants to go? If they're being coerced, of course not. If they genuinely do though, can you really deny them? Would you deny a gay kid therapy? It just seems really hard to decide honestly. It just seems like an issue you split hairs between what the kids want versus parents. I DO NOT think the parents should decide at all, but if the kid wants to go it is easy to say the parents force him, but intent is so hard to prove.

Obviously if they're adults they can do what the fuck the want.

 

Now ask yourself: What reasons can you think of for a gay kid wanting to get therapy to not be gay?

 

 

Spoiler: The reasons you will come up with will be about how society treats gay people, the actual problem.


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#9 BwareDWare94

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Posted 10 July 2018 - 09:52 PM

It's hurt some people, helped others. If it helped no one, ban it.

But that's not the case. Trying to ban it is purely political. 100% virtue signaling

 
Now ask yourself: What reasons can you think of for a gay kid wanting to get therapy to not be gay?
 
 
Spoiler: The reasons you will come up with will be about how society treats gay people, the actual problem.


Seems like most of society treats gay people very, very well. As they should.

Edited by BwareDWare94, 10 July 2018 - 09:53 PM.

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#10 OSUViking

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Posted 10 July 2018 - 10:02 PM

I vehemently disagree with that. That is kind of your job if you're a decent person and parent.

As to the article, it is super slippery imk. What if the kid actually wants to go? If they're being coerced, of course not. If they genuinely do though, can you really deny them? Would you deny a gay kid therapy? It just seems really hard to decide honestly. It just seems like an issue you split hairs between what the kids want versus parents. I DO NOT think the parents should decide at all, but if the kid wants to go it is easy to say the parents force him, but intent is so hard to prove.

Obviously if they're adults they can do what the fuck the want.

 

There is a MASSIVE difference between a parent doing their job, and teaching a kid/teen how to handle their emotions and responsibilities, and treating them like a blank slate that exists for them to project their own desires onto. 

 

I don't give a damn who the parent is. Celebrity, politician, some person no one knows about. That child/teen/whatever is their own person. The parents are there to show them how to be a competent human being, not to dictate a course through life for them. That's awful parenting and literally every person I know who had parents like this has problems with their parents and self-esteem. Of course that's anecdotal, but a parent should be helping their kids foster their own identity and paths through life, not dictating it or projecting their own desires onto them. Parents who do that are shitbags, and the grandparents who raised them probably weren't much better (and so on, and so on, etc, I think you get the point). 

 

EDIT: There are some circumstances that involve homosexual thoughts that I would believe someone would seek therapy for. With OCD (or just obsessive thought patterns in general), someone might have unpleasant thoughts about homosexual acts despite not actually being homosexual. Being distressed by this wouldn't indicate homophobia, I think it'd indicate a great deal of confusion for the individual, and so I would certainly support these individuals seek treatment to help with those thoughts. 

 

But that's not the same as being homosexual. 


Edited by OSUViking, 10 July 2018 - 10:10 PM.

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#11 OSUViking

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Posted 10 July 2018 - 10:06 PM

It's hurt some people, helped others. If it helped no one, ban it.

But that's not the case. Trying to ban it is purely political. 100% virtue signaling


Seems like most of society treats gay people very, very well. As they should.

 

The way society treats gay people generally speaking has nothing to do with the homes that these kids grow up in. Society of course plays a sizable role in how an individual turns out (in terms of values and such), but their core values, perceptions of themselves as human beings, and ability to regulate their emotions/self-esteem will be primarily decided by the environment they grow up in (which means their caregivers). 

 

There is no reason to feel ashamed of being gay. Absolutely none. Parents who suggest their kids go into conversion therapy are stuck in a time when being gay is seen as bad. People who feel ashamed of being gay were raised in environments or communities where homophobia is still prevalent. I would agree that a gay person who grows up in a sensible community with respectful parents would turn out fine in terms of how they view their sexuality, but that isn't the case we are talking about. We're talking about parents who suggest conversion therapy to their gay kids; these are toxic homes and there's no way around it. 


Edited by OSUViking, 10 July 2018 - 10:08 PM.

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#12 blotsfan

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Posted 10 July 2018 - 10:21 PM

It's hurt some people, helped others. If it helped no one, ban it.

But that's not the case. Trying to ban it is purely political. 100% virtue signaling

 
The absolute best case scenario for someone going through gay conversion therapy is that they're straight. You consider that to be worth the increase in depression and suicides among teens that go through it (not to mention that it almost never actually "works"). Also, what do you mean by virtue signaling? That people only care about gay people to look good? What evidence do you have of that? Because basically every reputable psychological organization on Earth agrees that conversion therapy is wrong. So you just happen to know more than them?

 

Seems like most of society treats gay people very, very well. As they should.


Really? Because it sure seems like the current federal government is rolling back LGBTQ protections (just keep ctrl+f for LGBTQ in here for some info). Not to mention that Maine's governor just attacked LGBTQ protections (you know, the point of the thread). Not to mention that crimes against LGBTQ people went up a lot last year. Not to mention you consider the idea of doing it to be absurd.

 

Sure seems like gay people aren't treated "very, very well."


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#13 Omerta

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Posted 10 July 2018 - 10:36 PM

 

There is a MASSIVE difference between a parent doing their job, and teaching a kid/teen how to handle their emotions and responsibilities, and treating them like a blank slate that exists for them to project their own desires onto. 

 

I don't give a damn who the parent is. Celebrity, politician, some person no one knows about. That child/teen/whatever is their own person. The parents are there to show them how to be a competent human being, not to dictate a course through life for them. That's awful parenting and literally every person I know who had parents like this has problems with their parents and self-esteem. Of course that's anecdotal, but a parent should be helping their kids foster their own identity and paths through life, not dictating it or projecting their own desires onto them. Parents who do that are shitbags, and the grandparents who raised them probably weren't much better (and so on, and so on, etc, I think you get the point). 

 

EDIT: There are some circumstances that involve homosexual thoughts that I would believe someone would seek therapy for. With OCD (or just obsessive thought patterns in general), someone might have unpleasant thoughts about homosexual acts despite not actually being homosexual. Being distressed by this wouldn't indicate homophobia, I think it'd indicate a great deal of confusion for the individual, and so I would certainly support these individuals seek treatment to help with those thoughts. 

 

But that's not the same as being homosexual. 

 

I dont think you have really thought about this all the way through when you say that statement. You say parents are supposed to teach them how to be competent human beings but there is a lot of molding that goes in there. Dont take this as me dogging you, because that is not really the intent here, but think about it. when you have a kid THEY ARE a blank slate. For the first 10 to 12 years of their lives it is your job to mold them. If you didnt and let them learn on their own your kid would probably be dead by 8 no bullshit. Then you get into the finer points of parenting like teaching your kids social cues.

 

For instance there is this boy named Zack who says he is a girl. My son thinks that is weird and has told this kid that. So should I let him be and think trans people are weird and uncomfortable people? Same thing with gay people, the thought of kissing boys is something that is completely odd to him, and he thinks that is also weird when he sees it on TV. So should he just say what he wants or should I at least teach him that just because he thinks something does not mean he should say it. What about the confusing message of telling the truth but being nice. Lets say a huge person is walking down the street and they call them fat. Sure, its true but completely rude and unnecessary. These are all things that parents have to teach kids and kids have to obey until they are old enough to get social cues.

 

Saying kid are not malleable and should not be are patently false imo. I dont see how you parent without molding a child to be honest. Them discovering who they are is probably the last 3 years of their childhood to be honest, so 1/6th of their childhood they dont have the faculties to get who they are, or peer pressure would not be a thing. I mean hell, think about it, there are grown ass kids, 30,40,50 year old kids who have no idea who they are, much less competent.

 

This is really all I wanted to say, I couldnt care less what happens in Maine if I am being honest. It is a long ass ways away, and there is not one fuck I can give that will change what is happening. So the rest would just be being mad for the sake of being mad.


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#14 blotsfan

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Posted 10 July 2018 - 10:41 PM

There is a wide gap between "parents get to have literally zero input in raising their children" and "parents should be allowed to torture their children to try to change a harmless aspect of them despite all credible research showing that it will probably not change the trait while instead causing other, more harmful psychological issues."


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#15 Omerta

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Posted 10 July 2018 - 10:45 PM

I never said there wasnt. I was merely saying that kids HAVE to be malleable. Not in the context of what you are talking about. Like I said, I literally give not one fuck about Maine or what happens there. 


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#16 OSUViking

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Posted 10 July 2018 - 10:47 PM

 
I dont think you have really thought about this all the way through when you say that statement. You say parents are supposed to teach them how to be competent human beings but there is a lot of molding that goes in there. Dont take this as me dogging you, because that is not really the intent here, but think about it. when you have a kid THEY ARE a blank slate. For the first 10 to 12 years of their lives it is your job to mold them. If you didnt and let them learn on their own your kid would probably be dead by 8 no bullshit. Then you get into the finer points of parenting like teaching your kids social cues.
 
For instance there is this boy named Zack who says he is a girl. My son thinks that is weird and has told this kid that. So should I let him be and think trans people are weird and uncomfortable people? Same thing with gay people, the thought of kissing boys is something that is completely odd to him, and he thinks that is also weird when he sees it on TV. So should he just say what he wants or should I at least teach him that just because he thinks something does not mean he should say it. What about the confusing message of telling the truth but being nice. Lets say a huge person is walking down the street and they call them fat. Sure, its true but completely rude and unnecessary. These are all things that parents have to teach kids and kids have to obey until they are old enough to get social cues.
 
Saying kid are not malleable and should not be are patently false imo. I dont see how you parent without molding a child to be honest. Them discovering who they are is probably the last 3 years of their childhood to be honest, so 1/6th of their childhood they dont have the faculties to get who they are, or peer pressure would not be a thing. I mean hell, think about it, there are grown ass kids, 30,40,50 year old kids who have no idea who they are, much less competent.
 
This is really all I wanted to say, I couldnt care less what happens in Maine if I am being honest. It is a long ass ways away, and there is not one fuck I can give that will change what is happening. So the rest would just be being mad for the sake of being mad.

I can see where my stance went too far. I certainly agree that a parent plays a huge role in how the kid develops and naturally will impart their values, for better or for worse. Even well adjusted individuals will likely have many similarities to their parents.

That is still a farcry away from suggesting conversion therapy, though itt seems you weren't addressing the conversion therapy with respect to my post so I will drop that.

There are plenty of parents who raise their kids appropriately but also plenty who take things too far or hardly interact with their kids' development at all. What I am referring to are the parents who have black and white perspectives of reality (basically by default not a healthy approach) and force this on their kids (in the conversion therapy example, that reality is gay is bad). Affection comes when they satisfy mommy and daddy. That's not how to raise a kid. Unconditional might seem too far, especially if the kid makes some shit decisions on their own end, but in the early years it's pretty crucial for them to explore emotions and learn about themselves. I see a lot of parents act like their kids are just extensions of their own identity. That's not right. I agree that the parent must play a huge role in shaping their children into socially/emotionally competent adults, but in circumstances like conditional affection/support that's not happening.

Edited by OSUViking, 10 July 2018 - 10:50 PM.

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#17 Omerta

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Posted 10 July 2018 - 10:56 PM

I can see where my stance went too far. I certainly agree that a parent plays a huge role in how the kid develops and naturally will impart their values, for better or for worse. Even well adjusted individuals will likely have many similarities to their parents.

That is still a farcry away from suggesting conversion therapy, though itt seems you weren't addressing the conversion therapy with respect to my post so I will drop that.

There are plenty of parents who raise their kids appropriately but also plenty who take things too far or hardly interact with their kids' development at all. What I am referring to are the parents who have black and white perspectives of reality (basically by default not a healthy approach) and force this on their kids (in the conversion therapy example, that reality is gay is bad). Affection comes when they satisfy mommy and daddy. That's not how to raise a kid. Unconditional might seem too far, especially if the kid makes some shit decisions on their own end, but in the early years it's pretty crucial for them to explore emotions and learn about themselves. I see a lot of parents act like their kids are just extensions of their own identity. That's not right. I agree that the parent must play a huge role in shaping their children into socially/emotionally competent adults, but in circumstances like conditional affection/support that's not happening.

 

I would say that is fair. There is a chasm between molding your kids and trying to make your clone so you can go back to high school. Personally I hated high school so I dont see the appeal, but there are definitely people who do, and you are correct, they are shit human beings.

 

I didnt bring up the parenting thing erroneously, it is essential to this article imo, but not on the moral conundrum part. It was more to say that if a kid TRULY wants to go to conversion therapy of his own accord, it would be hard for me to say he/she should not be allowed. however the bond and the relationship between parents and child the likely response would be,"Oh, youre saying that because your parents want you too." So because people know children are malleable, it could be harder for someone to actually get a treatment they feel is necessary FOR THEM.


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#18 PhilElliot

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Posted 11 July 2018 - 01:24 AM

Kids are not malleable dolls that parents get to shape to their liking. You throw in the caveat "if the kid objects"... if the kid has reached a point that their parents are suggesting conversion therapy of all things, it's not a healthy home, and it's highly unlikely that they feel safe objecting to their parents demands. 
 
"Unwanted same-sex attraction" sounds a lot like internalized self-hatred from homophobic parents.


Stop using the term homophobia. There is no such thing.
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#19 blotsfan

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Posted 11 July 2018 - 06:06 AM

Stop using the term homophobia. There is no such thing.

 

Oh boy, I'm looking forward to this one.


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#20 Sarge

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Posted 11 July 2018 - 12:41 PM

Lolz
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Thanks, DMac!
 





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