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seanbrock

Can you be fiscally conservative & Christian?

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"It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven."

 

How can you be Christain and think that it's ok for one guy to be worth over 100 billion dollars while 15 million children (21% of the nation's children) are living in poverty or that even one kid doesn't have health care? Keep in mind we're talking about the richest, most powerful empire in world history.

 

How can you he Christain and vote for people who would rather cut rich people's taxes and expand the military budget by enough to give every child in the country guaranteed health care several times over in order to murder innocent people for their country's resources?

 

I hope this doesn't end badly, I'm just trying to pin those who are conservative and religious down on what I view to be highly contradictory values.

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Do we even have any religious Christians on this site besides Dmac, who I don't think is particularly fiscally conservative?

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Protestants aren't actually Christian, fight me.

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Sure you can. Conservative in the sense of what the government takes from you, but you better damn well make a bunch of charitable donations. If I were wealthy, I'd prefer to get to choose where I make my donations than have it taxed out of me.

 

I think everybody here is intelligent enough to have questions about "God" but nobody is so anti-religion that they look down on religious folks.

We're very centrist on many issues, which in my opinion speaks well for the overall intelligence of this collective.

Edited by BwareDWare94

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I'd like to know what drugs were involved in the making of this thread.

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I'd like to know what drugs were involved in the making of this thread.

what makes you say that?

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what makes you say that?

You have a history.

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You have a history.

so is he dismissing the premise or me or both. I would guess both but I'm interested to read why he dismisses the premise.

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what makes you say that?

I think he was implying that the idea of a true Christian being fiscally conservative is hard to fathom. And it is, but to assume all rich people are greedy is no better than assuming that all poor people are lazy.

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Sure you can. Conservative in the sense of what the government takes from you, but you better damn well make a bunch of charitable donations. If I were wealthy, I'd prefer to get to choose where I make my donations than have it taxed out of me.

 

I think everybody here is intelligent enough to have questions about "God" but nobody is so anti-religion that they look down on religious folks.

 

We're very centrist on many issues, which in my opinion speaks well for the overall intelligence of this collective.

The definition of "centrist" is very fluid. By all measures the US has become much more conservative over the past 30+ years since Ronald Reagan. Homeless rates have gone up, poverty has gone up, people are drowning in debt, income inequality is trending towards a return to the gilded age.

 

My question is how can you profess to follow the teachings of Christ when he says on several occasions that being rich is immoral. I would imagine he wouldn't look to kindly on people living lavish lifestyles miles from people living in desperaration. How can a Christian support an agenda that impoverishes workers so that rich people can keep their money. How many of you genuinely believe that rich Christains would all if the sudden dedicate themselves to service if only they weren't taxed? Be honest.

Edited by seanbrock

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I think it is fairly easy. I think all you really have to do is not believe the bible is verbatim, the infallible word of God. I think that in general the bible is a decent enough book, and may have had origins in the divine, or at least to the person who first conceived the notion, but when the bible was written some half century after Jesus was dead and has all these weird fingerprints of man all over them, it becomes easy to disregard it as granite, but not throw the baby out with the bath water.

 

I myself am Christian in the most rudimentary sense. It has not been long but I have finally pursued religion on my own, and I believe in Jesus Christ as a real person, and someone who had something to do with divinity. Maybe not in the sense of the literal child of god, but the one who most embodied what it meant, and the one who lived as close to perfection as possible. I believe in Christ, and I believe in god, but I do not conflate the two, and I think the bible is probably half true and half false on a good day.

 

Think about the question you present. If I am a 6th century king and I want to acquire all of the wealth from a nation, what would be the easiest way to do that? Convince them it is bad. Tell a population that is less than .01% literate that it is written in a book that they must loathe wealth or the punishment will be the damnation of their souls. A highly superstitious and incredibly illiterate population will try to discard wealth, but who to give it to? Oh the guy who is the divine representation and whose rule was christened by the almighty, he will surely know how best to disseminate this money.

 

I highly doubt god gives a damn whats in your wallet so long as you didnt get it in a sleezy way ala Mark Cuban, Steve Jobs, and the countless hedge fund managers and banking executives.

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Btw, I don't think good principaled Christains that happen to have cash would care if they were taxed, they would still donate to charity and give their time to helping people.

 

I've known good people who are rich. I've know good conservative people that are rich that would give you the shirt off their back. I don't even think being rich is immoral. I think hierarchies are natural but they don't have to be barbaric. We have the resources to do this but we spend them killing people and letting a small percentage of people steal all the wealth that comes from the production that we all (for the most part) contribute to.

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I think there is a fine line between paying a FAIR share, and saying pay for everything because people are poor. I am not saying you are saying this but it is a common argument. You are rich, thus you should float other people who are poor. Now I will concede a lot of people who have money are engaged in considerable philanthropy. I am all for that and I think it is a good thing.

 

I do like Bware's idea though. I think tax everyone a flat rate and then as the income bracket becomes higher you can give rich people the opportunity to donate to non-profit charities that are not tied to them in any way. Something like 30% of earnings go to a charity or we take it, you decide, kind of thing. That is actually one of the best ideas I have heard on here in a while imo. Actual donations though, not the ones you get tax breaks for lol.

Edited by Omerta

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I think it is fairly easy. I think all you really have to do is not believe the bible is verbatim, the infallible word of God. I think that in general the bible is a decent enough book, and may have had origins in the divine, or at least to the person who first conceived the notion, but when the bible was written some half century after Jesus was dead and has all these weird fingerprints of man all over them, it becomes easy to disregard it as granite, but not throw the baby out with the bath water.

 

I myself am Christian in the most rudimentary sense. It has not been long but I have finally pursued religion on my own, and I believe in Jesus Christ as a real person, and someone who had something to do with divinity. Maybe not in the sense of the literal child of god, but the one who most embodied what it meant, and the one who lived as close to perfection as possible. I believe in Christ, and I believe in god, but I do not conflate the two, and I think the bible is probably half true and half false on a good day.

 

Think about the question you present. If I am a 6th century king and I want to acquire all of the wealth from a nation, what would be the easiest way to do that? Convince them it is bad. Tell a population that is less than .01% literate that it is written in a book that they must loathe wealth or the punishment will be the damnation of their souls. A highly superstitious and incredibly illiterate population will try to discard wealth, but who to give it to? Oh the guy who is the divine representation and whose rule was christened by the almighty, he will surely know how best to disseminate this money.

 

I highly doubt god gives a damn whats in your wallet so long as you didnt get it in a sleezy way ala Mark Cuban, Steve Jobs, and the countless hedge fund managers and banking executives.

So if the Bible is half truth and half bullshit how do you determine what Christ stood for? Jefferson wrote his own Bible called The Moral Teachings Of Jesus of Nazareth. I need to read it one day but apparently he thought similarly to you. It kind of makes the whole thing seem like an online dating profile to me. What is a Christain because it seems like you're close to that but not quite that.

 

Do you believe that Christ would support Republican economic policy? I there's a lot of evidence that supports him not sharing those values but if you don't agree with that or it's not part of the Bible that your've taken to heart what was his message about?

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I think there is a fine line between paying a FAIR share, and saying pay for everything because people are poor. I am not saying you are saying this but it is a common argument. You are rich, thus you should float other people who are poor. Now I will concede a lot of people who have money are engaged in considerable philanthropy. I am all for that and I think it is a good thing.

 

I do like Bware's idea though. I think tax everyone a flat rate and then as the income bracket becomes higher you can give rich people the opportunity to donate to non-profit charities that are not tied to them in any way. Something like 30% of earnings go to a charity or we take it, you decide, kind of thing. That is actually one of the best ideas I have heard on here in a while imo. Actual donations though, not the ones you get tax breaks for lol.

Well I think you an I also know that money is hidden and manipulated using charities. I would want those charities to be approved or audited or vetted in some way but maybe that could be something idk.

 

I'd be cool with keeping the taxes lower if Unions and collectives were mandated. Democratize the work place. You have to legislate that though or it will never work. There have to be rules to the game. There is no such thing as a free market.

Edited by seanbrock

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Why do we except totalitarian dictators in the work place if we against it in our government? Who controls you more? Your creditors and your employer or the laws of the state?

Edited by seanbrock

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Do we even have any religious Christians on this site besides Dmac, who I don't think is particularly fiscally conservative?

 

This guy.

 

I was raised in the church and by fiscally conservative parents.

 

To say the least I am nothing like them and I hate most 'church' activities and the regular jackasses who think that they are better than everyone else.

 

The worst people I have met in life... have claimed to be Christians. The amount of 'Christians' that try to sweep things under the rug in churches and acquire hordes of money are no better than the people they condemn.

 

Fuck the American church.

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When I was in jail there was this little old lady who came and sang and played piano for church and she took names and information from the prisoners and made sure that their kids have presents under the tree for Christmas. I've met a lot of shitty Christains too and I personally don't believe and person knows the answers to those questions. I'm just saying if your live your life by the morals of Christ, economic policy that hurts poor people would be unacceptable.

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no

 

*waits for philelliots response

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so is he dismissing the premise or me or both. I would guess both but I'm interested to read why he dismisses the premise.

For one, no one follows religion word for word. And you can find hypocrisy within any religion.

 

Two, being fiscally conservative is NOT unethical. If you want to argue voting Republican is questionable you won't get a fight from me.

 

Three, building off of that... the republican party and fiscal conservatism are not interchangeable.

 

Four, you also voted for our republican president...so ....

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I mean we all know Trump isnt really a Republican right ?

I'd argue the Republican Party is now defined to be whatever trump is.

Edited by blotsfan

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If Ronald Reagan could see the Republican Party today he would die a second death.

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I'd argue the Republican Party is now defined to be whatever trump is.

 

Sadly, radicalism defines both major parties now. Our best hope is a strong third party. I'm not sure a Democractic Socialist party is the best answer but I think Bernie planted a seed and we're seeing the first roots take hold.

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