NFL Investigates Saints RE: Their "Bounty System"

[Favre4Ever+ 4,476]

Boxing, UFC. Sports follow a completely different set of rules. If 2 baseball players start punching each other no one is getting arrested.

 

Completely different scenarios. Two guys going at each other is much different than one side conspiring to harm or knock somebody else out. Conspiracy to cause grievous bodily harm. And to top it all off they are were all doing these acts in hopes of compensation. Mercenaries of the NFL, if you will.

 

I am not saying these guys WILL be arrested. It's unlikely they will. But they are all criminals as far as I am concerned.

[BucD+ 648]

@DParrPFW: Statement from Gregg Williams: I want to express my sincere regret and apology to the NFL, Mr. Benson, and the New Orleans Saints.

 

@DParrPFW: Gregg Williams: It was a terrible mistake, and we knew it was wrong while we were doing it.

 

@DParrPFW: Gregg Williams: Instead of getting caught up in it, I should have stopped it. I take full responsibility for my role.

 

@DParrPFW: Gregg Williams: I have learned a hard lesson and I guarantee that I will never participate in or allow this kind of activity to happen again

Edited March 2, 2012 by BucD

[Shotgun 442]

Completely different scenarios. Two guys going at each other is much different than one side conspiring to harm or knock somebody else out. Conspiracy to cause grievous bodily harm. And to top it all off they are were all doing these acts in hopes of compensation. Mercenaries of the NFL, if you will.

 

I am not saying these guys WILL be arrested. It's unlikely they will. But they are all criminals as far as I am concerned.

 

I don't disagree, I just thought the kickers point was moot. The sports world follows their own rules. Short of using a weapon they aren't going to get punished based on what federal laws there are. Although if the government starts to feel this is a common occurrence amongst teams they might step in and have a talk with Mr. Goodell and the NFL attorneys.

[BucD+ 648]

@PatKirwanCBS: There could be lawsuits to follow by players injured in games against the Saints during the 2009-11 seasons.Lawers have been texting me

 

Ruh-Roh

[ATL_Predator+ 1,196]

@DParrPFW: Gregg Williams: Instead of getting caught up in it, I should have stopped it. I take full responsibility for my role.

 

 

Master of the understatement Greg Williams is.

[BucD+ 648]

@JasonLaCanfora: Memo sent to NFL clubs notes an incident with Saints LB Jon Vilma putting up $10K cash for a pre-playoff bounty and also notes that...

 

@JasonLaCanfora: , according to the memo, Sean Payton's agent, Mike Ornstein, put up money for a bounty on two occasions. Memo says the actions of

 

@JasonLaCanfora: Payton and GM Mickey Loomis serves as "conduct detrimental" to the game. Hard not to think steep punishment is coming

[Favre4Ever+ 4,476]

Sean Payton's AGENT got involved.

 

What in the world...

[Shotgun 442]

His agent getting involved is weird. The only thing I can think of is he was trying to help the cause to win a Superbowl. The more Payton makes, the more he makes. Either that or they also had some betting going on.

[KiLaSix9+ 398]

Wow. I've just read through all the posts on the matter. I've been at work all day so this is all breaking news to me. It's fucking crazy. The NFL definitely needs to come down on the Saints. Remove at least 2-3 1st round picks as with Spygate. Heavy fines for Payton, the coaches involved and their GM. Also, with Greg Williams being at the center of all this, he deserves the biggest fine and a suspension IMO.

 

I understand suspending him hurts the Rams and its not fair since they weren't connected to this but its inexcusable for him to get off with a fine. This type of thing is disgusting to the game of football. I've always said, as have many divisional rivals and players alike, that the Saints were a dirty team. Vilma and Harper in particular but I never imagined it was to this degree.

[Favre4Ever+ 4,476]

Peter King

Talked to Favre. "I'm not pissed. It's football. I don't think anything less of those guys.''

[ATL_Predator+ 1,196]

The Washington Redskins had a bounty system for big hits on opponents under former defensive coordinator Gregg Williams that was similar to the one revealed by an NFL investigation of the New Orleans Saints, four players who played under Williams said Friday.

 

Three of the players described a coach who doled out thousands of dollars to Redskins defenders who measured up to Williams’s scoring system for rugged play, including “kill shots” that knocked opposing teams’stars out of a game.

 

“You got compensated more for a kill shot than you did other hits,” said one former player, who spoke on condition of anonymity.

 

Of the four players interviewed, only Philip Daniels, a former defensive lineman, was willing to be quoted on the record. He defended Williams’s coaching. Daniels now serves as the team’s director of player development.

 

Players said compensation ranged from “hundreds to thousands of dollars,” with the biggest sum any player received believed to be about $8,000.

 

“I never took it for anything [but] just incentive to make good, hard plays,” said a current player, who requested anonymity. “But I’m pretty sure it did entice some guys to do more to a player than normal when it came to taking them out. I mean, that’s cash. Let’s just be honest about it.

 

“If you took the star player out, he’d hook you up a little bit.”

 

via Washington Post

[Shotgun 442]

If he did this elsewhere I think that's pretty good grounds for a life time NFL ban. DO IT.

[BucD+ 648]

NFLPA statement on Saints' Bountygate situation: 'Health and safety is a paramount issue to the NFLPA. The NFLPA was informed of this investigation by the NFL earlier today and will review the information contained in the league’s report'

 

@jstaley74: Just seeing all the reports about the Saints D. I knew there was something fishy about getting punched in the face during our playoff game

 

lol

 

@JasonLaCanfora: To reiterate from earlier, the matters will be discussed by owners/teams at the late March league meeting, with discipline forthcoming

Edited March 2, 2012 by BucD

[BucD+ 648]

Per PFT:

Darren Sharper denies Saints had bounties for hurting opponents

Posted by Josh Alper on March 2, 2012, 7:07 PM EST

 

There’s been a report that the Saints had a $10,000 bounty on knocking Vikings quarterback Brett Favre out of the NFC Championship Game in 2010, but a starter for that team calls that and other allegations that there were rewards for defenders for causing injuries “ridiculous.”

 

Darren Sharper spoke to NFL.com and flatly denied that there were cash payments offered in the Saints’ locker room to players who injured members of other teams. Sharper did admit that cash was changing hands among members of the Saints defense, but that they were limited to interceptions, sacks and other legal plays and that practices of that kind go on around the NFL.

 

“I think this is something that, from when I got in the league in 1997, has happened thousands and thousands of times over,” Sharper said. “It’s ridiculous that someone is trying to say that we made bounties on knocking guys out, when basically all it was is that when a guy gets an interception, then he might get paid. That’s something that guys do amongst themselves.”

 

This probably won’t be the last we hear from other former Saints and players from around the league who have played for Gregg Williams. Retired offensive tackle Damien Woody, who never played for Williams, said on Twitter that bounty programs “happen all over the league.” The big difference is that the Saints got nabbed by the league for this one.

 

Per Yahoo!Sports.com:

Gregg Williams’ bounty history should result in a lifetime ban

By Doug Farrar | Shutdown Corner – 5 minutes ago

 

The vile practice of paying players to knock other players out of games, known as a "bounty system" to most and referred to as "pay for performance " by longtime defensive coordinator Gregg Williams, was thrown into the spotlight on Friday, when the NFL released a 50,000 page report indicating that with Williams ias their defensive coordinator, the New Orleans Saints participated in a system that paid players cash bonuses for hits that knocked opposing players -- most notably marquee quarterbacks like Brett Favre and Kurt Warner -- from games.

 

When the report came out, Williams -- now the St. Louis Rams' defensive coordinator -- tried to engage in damage control with this statement:

 

"I want to express my sincere regret and apology to the NFL, [saints owner Tom] Benson, and the New Orleans Saints fans for my participation in the 'pay for performance' program while I was with the Saints. It was a terrible mistake, and we knew it was wrong while we were doing it. Instead of getting caught up in it, I should have stopped it. I take full responsibility for my role. I am truly sorry. I have learned a hard lesson and I guarantee that I will never participate in or allow this kind of activity to happen again."

 

Problem is, this wasn't something that first occurred to Williams in New Orleans. According to a report by the Washington Post, Williams had something very similar rigged up when he was the Washington Redskins' defensive coordinator from 2004 through 2007.

 

Three of the players described a coach who doled out thousands of dollars to Redskins defenders who measured up to Williams's scoring system for rugged play, including "kill shots" that knocked opposing teams' stars out of a game.

"You got compensated more for a kill shot than you did other hits," said one former player, who spoke on condition of anonymity.

 

Players said compensation ranged from "hundreds to thousands of dollars," with the biggest sum any player received believed to be about $8,000.

 

"I never took it for anything [but] just incentive to make good, hard plays," said a current player, who requested anonymity. "But I'm pretty sure it did entice some guys to do more to a player than normal when it came to taking them out. I mean, that's cash. Let's just be honest about it.

 

Linebacker Philip Daniels was the only player willing to go on the record, according to the Post's Mark Maske. Daniels, who currently serves as the Redskins' director of player development, defended Williams' practices.

"I think it is wrong the way they're trying to paint [Williams]," Daniels added. "He never told us to go out there and break a guy's neck or break a guy's leg. It was all in the context of a good, hard football."

 

One anonymous player recalled Williams saying that "If you cut the snake's head off, the body will die."

"It was made clear that he was talking about not just running backs who turned their heads the opposite way and how they would go down, but also about other stars on offense that were the best players on that team," the player told Maske.

 

In the wake of the allegations against the Saints, and these subsequent revelations, two questions must be asked: First, what is to be done with Williams? Those naive enough to believe that he's the only one implementing such a system in the modern NFL would tend to side with the notion that Williams should be banned from the NFL for life, and that there is no place for such things in football.

 

Second: What is to be done about the "bounty" practice? Those who know the history of the NFL understand that these bounties go back decades. Former Philadelphia Eagles head coach Buddy Ryan was famous for it, and Williams now works for Rams head coach Jeff Fisher, who played and coached under Ryan. If Fisher fires Williams, can he do so with a straight face and without a hint of hypocrisy?

 

When the SpyGate scandal broke in 2007, ex-coach and current Fox Sports analyst Jimmy Johnson was asked about the practice that cost Bill Belichick and the New England Patriots a first-round draft pick and a total of $750,000 in fines. Johnson's response was clear, and precisely what the NFL didn't want anyone to say -- that if anyone thought that the Patriots were the only ones doing this, they must be nuts.

 

The bounty system is a long-held idea that has managed to escape public notice for a number of years. If Roger Goodell is as serious about player safety as he says he is, his next act must be to take Williams' punishment out of the hands of the men he works with and has known for decades. He must take this in hand and say to the world that indeed, a new and very serious sheriff in town.

 

Roger Goodell's next act must be to realize that Williams' apology is completely hollow, that his repugnant modus operandi will remain under other names and guises unless it is killed forever, and that removing Williams from the game on a lifetime basis is the best way to start.

 

Gregg Williams said it best: If you cut the snake's head off, the body will die

Edited March 3, 2012 by BucD

[Zack_of_Steel+ 3,014]

The average NFL player's salary is $1.9 million dollars. A $1,000 dollar bounty equates to .0526% of their annual income. So, to put that into perspective, I make around $37,200 a year. .0526% of my salary would equal $19.58. If my boss told me he'd give me $20 to get an underage kid wasted by serving them alcohol, $20 is not a real incentive. If I go ahead and do it, I am predisposed toward doing so already; the $20 tip means next to nothing. The suggestion and approval from my superior is what makes me feel okay doing it, not the money.

 

"Bounties" are and have been in all levels of football since its inception. The fact that the Saints put a few dollars down with it hardly makes it any worse than Strahan admitting on Fox's pregame show a few years back that the Giants had bounties when he played, but not for money. If we're outraged that the Saints were alright with the bounties set forth, that's fine, but it should not all be pinned on one team seeing as most teams will high-five eachother when they knock a player out of the game. If it's the ethics that has everyone in a frenzy, then most of the league is at fault. The money is just a talking point.

[Vin+ 3,121]

The Washington Post reports that Gregg Williams utilized a bounty system paying players for big hits as far back as his time as Redskins defensive coordinator from 2004 through 2007.

 

The Post spoke with four of Williams' former Redskins players. Only DE Phillip Daniels, now a member of Washington's front office, was willing to speak on the record. The reward for big hits was "hundreds to thousands of dollars," said the Redskins' players. Recalled one defensive player who's still in the league, "If you took the star player out, he’d hook you up a little bit." The Rams shouldn't count on having Williams to coordinate their defense for 16 games.

 

Source: Washington Post

[Shotgun 442]

The average NFL player's salary is $1.9 million dollars. A $1,000 dollar bounty equates to .0526% of their annual income. So, to put that into perspective, I make around $37,200 a year. .0526% of my salary would equal $19.58. If my boss told me he'd give me $20 to get an underage kid wasted by serving them alcohol, $20 is not a real incentive. If I go ahead and do it, I am predisposed toward doing so already; the $20 tip means next to nothing. The suggestion and approval from my superior is what makes me feel okay doing it, not the money.

 

"Bounties" are and have been in all levels of football since its inception. The fact that the Saints put a few dollars down with it hardly makes it any worse than Strahan admitting on Fox's pregame show a few years back that the Giants had bounties when he played, but not for money. If we're outraged that the Saints were alright with the bounties set forth, that's fine, but it should not all be pinned on one team seeing as most teams will high-five eachother when they knock a player out of the game. If it's the ethics that has everyone in a frenzy, then most of the league is at fault. The money is just a talking point.

 

 

My problem is with the coaches being active in it. There's going to be players on almost every team that does it amongst themselves, but I find it a bit on the unethical side for a coach to not only support it but actually set the entire system up with payed out bonuses and encourage it. The health of players is their responsibility. I don't think Gregg would like it too much if the opposing team was trying to seriously injure his star players.

 

Also keep in mind it's not like all players are okay with this. There might be a few guys high-fiving on the opposing team, but there's also some guys getting on their knees and praying for the injured.

Edited March 3, 2012 by Shotgun

[Shotgun 442]

[/url]

New Orleans already doesn't not have a first round pick in this draft , via the production of Darren Sprioles

 

 

Any other penalty can cause cap problems and with brees, nicks, and Colston pending free agents , New Orleans is in major trouble

 

 

 

^Good point

[RazorStar 4,025]

It's Mark Ingram that is counting the Saints out a first rounder, not Darren Sproles. But yeah... srs business.

[BwareDWare94 723]

Lost what little remaining respect I had for the Saints coaching staff. Harrd to like them considering how much Sean Payton runs up the score, but this...this is the straw that broke the camel's back.

 

And Brett Favre's ankle.

[Sacks98 28]

I don't agree with everything Goodell does but this is one i would support if he brought the hammer down.

 

I don't care if other teams are doing this if they get caught then treat them the same way and punish them as well you shouldn't pay people to go out and try to harm somebody.

[Eefluxx 113]

getting my old paper bag out of retirement

 

And just to make it wonderful to me this all comes out on my birthday.

 

Fuck Me!

Edited March 3, 2012 by Eefluxx

[ATL_Predator+ 1,196]

ROFLSAINTS

[oochymp 2,393]

How much of this will affect the St. Louis Rams, who just hired Gregg Williams as their new defensive coordinator?

first of all, there obviously will be no direct affect on the Rams, however, Williams should at least get a 2-3 year suspension, so that would affect the Rams indirectly

 

I don't disagree, I just thought the kickers point was moot. The sports world follows their own rules. Short of using a weapon they aren't going to get punished based on what federal laws there are. Although if the government starts to feel this is a common occurrence amongst teams they might step in and have a talk with Mr. Goodell and the NFL attorneys.

there is a different set of rules for sports, but it doesn't include shit like this, I'll address that a bit responding to the next post

 

@PatKirwanCBS: There could be lawsuits to follow by players injured in games against the Saints during the 2009-11 seasons.Lawers have been texting me

 

Ruh-Roh

this is an interesting case from a legal perspective, in sports there's generally an assumption of risk defense (the guy suing assumed the risks of the game by participating so there shouldn't be liability) but the assumption of risk typically ends at risks commonly associated with the normal play of the game, so it's typically negated by players breaking the rules (ie if you intentionally poke a guy's eye out in a pile, you may be liable for the damages) but for something like this it seems pretty unlikely to me that a court would hold anyone liable because you'd have to prove that the actual act (by which I mean the hit) was so far outside of the rules as to be outside of any risk assumed by playing the game of football, from what I've seen (and I am only a first year law student who hasn't looked into this issue specifically) courts usually interpret the assumption of risk pretty broadly when it comes to violent sports like football

 

The average NFL player's salary is $1.9 million dollars. A $1,000 dollar bounty equates to .0526% of their annual income. So, to put that into perspective, I make around $37,200 a year. .0526% of my salary would equal $19.58. If my boss told me he'd give me $20 to get an underage kid wasted by serving them alcohol, $20 is not a real incentive. If I go ahead and do it, I am predisposed toward doing so already; the $20 tip means next to nothing. The suggestion and approval from my superior is what makes me feel okay doing it, not the money.

 

"Bounties" are and have been in all levels of football since its inception. The fact that the Saints put a few dollars down with it hardly makes it any worse than Strahan admitting on Fox's pregame show a few years back that the Giants had bounties when he played, but not for money. If we're outraged that the Saints were alright with the bounties set forth, that's fine, but it should not all be pinned on one team seeing as most teams will high-five eachother when they knock a player out of the game. If it's the ethics that has everyone in a frenzy, then most of the league is at fault. The money is just a talking point.

the average salary for athletes is very skewed because of the huge contracts, so a much better statistic to use is the median salary, which is $770k, that means half of the players in the league made less than $770k last year, so $1k is roughly 0.13% of the salary, so to use yours as an example it'd be comparable to a $50 offer ($48.31 to be precise) still not a huge incentive, but certainly more encouragement than $20, and if you think about a young player playing for the minimum (which this season was between $375k and $600k for rookies through 4th year vets) the appropriate comparison is $62 (0.17%)-$100 (0.26%) again, not an incredible amount of money, but less has been used to elicit worse actions

[Milla4Prez63 678]

I remember Malcolm Jenkins taking a cheap shot at Freeman's legs when he ran out of bounds a year ago. Makes sense.