How good is Eli Manning?

[Turry 755]

Because Peyton isn't coming back (Quote me, don't, whatever, he's done as the Peyton we once knew), my list would be.

 

1. Aaron Rodgers

2. Drew Brees

3. Tom Brady

 

4. Ben Roethlisberger

5. Philip Rivers

6. Eli Manning

 

7. Matt Schaub

8. Tony Romo

9. Jay Cutler

 

And then the rest are a ways back, but if you want a 10th guy, I'm saying Matt Ryan . I've seperated them into tiers to basically say that the top three guys are 1a, 1b, 1c and that sort of thing.

 

 

fixed it

[Maverick 791]

Players are allowed to have a fluke year, Favre had an amazing 09 between shitty 06, decent 07, shitty 08 and shitty 2010. Rivers was the best regular season QB in the league for three seasons in a row prior to this year, where the only knock is his 20 INT's. Eli was hovering around 10th best QB last year because he couldn't play consistently. This is really the first season where he's played great all season long (except against the Redskins), and because he did the Giants won a championship. That doesn't mean you leapfrog a guy who is solidly 5th best... You get close, but that's it.

 

Sure the post season means a lot more than the regular season, but a player only gets so many opportunities to be in the post season. None of the Chargers playoff losses can be put directly on Rivers' shoulders, and he's the best december QB in the league. If the Chargers were to win a super bowl next year (Please no) here's how the discussion would go. "Rivers is so much better than Eli durr." Because you can say that without doubt, you should be able to say Rivers and Eli are incredibly close right now.

 

If Rivers does have another sub standard year, and Eli continues to play like he has been in September, October and January, then sure I can say Eli is better than Rivers. Right now, there's no way I can say that decisively. Let the super bowl mellow a while before you start proclaiming Eli, alright.

 

+1.

 

Dumbasses.

 

There, at least you stick to your guns lol

[Favre4Ever+ 4,476]

Players are allowed to have a fluke year, Favre had an amazing 09 between shitty 06, decent 07, shitty 08 and shitty 2010. Rivers was the best regular season QB in the league for three seasons in a row prior to this year, where the only knock is his 20 INT's. Eli was hovering around 10th best QB last year because he couldn't play consistently. This is really the first season where he's played great all season long (except against the Redskins), and because he did the Giants won a championship. That doesn't mean you leapfrog a guy who is solidly 5th best... You get close, but that's it.

 

Sure the post season means a lot more than the regular season, but a player only gets so many opportunities to be in the post season. None of the Chargers playoff losses can be put directly on Rivers' shoulders, and he's the best december QB in the league. If the Chargers were to win a super bowl next year (Please no) here's how the discussion would go. "Rivers is so much better than Eli durr." Because you can say that without doubt, you should be able to say Rivers and Eli are incredibly close right now.

 

If Rivers does have another sub standard year, and Eli continues to play like he has been in September, October and January, then sure I can say Eli is better than Rivers. Right now, there's no way I can say that decisively. Let the super bowl mellow a while before you start proclaiming Eli, alright.

 

Rivers inherited one of the most talented teams in the league over the last decade and all he has to show for it is a pile of statistics.

 

Rivers doesn't belong in the elite class, regardless of where you have Eli ranked.

Edited February 6, 2012 by Favre4Ever

[DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241]

Players are allowed to have a fluke year, Favre had an amazing 09 between shitty 06, decent 07, shitty 08 and shitty 2010. Rivers was the best regular season QB in the league for three seasons in a row prior to this year, where the only knock is his 20 INT's. Eli was hovering around 10th best QB last year because he couldn't play consistently. This is really the first season where he's played great all season long (except against the Redskins), and because he did the Giants won a championship. That doesn't mean you leapfrog a guy who is solidly 5th best... You get close, but that's it.

 

Sure the post season means a lot more than the regular season, but a player only gets so many opportunities to be in the post season. None of the Chargers playoff losses can be put directly on Rivers' shoulders, and he's the best december QB in the league. If the Chargers were to win a super bowl next year (Please no) here's how the discussion would go. "Rivers is so much better than Eli durr." Because you can say that without doubt, you should be able to say Rivers and Eli are incredibly close right now.

 

If Rivers does have another sub standard year, and Eli continues to play like he has been in September, October and January, then sure I can say Eli is better than Rivers. Right now, there's no way I can say that decisively. Let the super bowl mellow a while before you start proclaiming Eli, alright.

 

Can't believe i'd ever agree with RZ, but here I am.

 

I get it, the Giants have won two Super Bowls with Eli at the helm, but playoffs and superbowl wins are team accomplishments. And while he's won two MVPs, he didn't do all that much in those two games to truly set himself apart from Rivers, except maybe the 07 last drive.

[housemd 338]

So basically everybody has different definitions of an elite QB..For me,Eli is an elite QB along with Brady, Rodgers, Brees and Ben in the same group...

[Favre4Ever+ 4,476]

Can't believe i'd ever agree with RZ, but here I am.

 

I get it, the Giants have won two Super Bowls with Eli at the helm, but playoffs and superbowl wins are team accomplishments. And while he's won two MVPs, he didn't do all that much in those two games to truly set himself apart from Rivers, except maybe the 07 last drive.

 

Every play. Every yard. Every 1st Down. Every Touchdown. Every Victory.

 

It's all a team effort and all a team accomplishment.

[DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241]

Every play. Every yard. Every 1st Down. Every Touchdown. Every Victory.

 

It's all a team effort and all a team accomplishment.

 

Irrelevant. Regardless, you evaluate the player's performance, not the team's perfomance when you compare two players.

 

over under 60% of a team's success isn't in direct control of the offense, even less of that is in the direct control of the QB. So it's unfair to directly blame the QB for the team's success in the playoffs, or lack therof.

[Zack_of_Steel+ 3,014]

A lot of people have referred to Peyton as being not only elite, but possibly the greatest QB of all time. Yet, he's always choked on his cock in the postseason. So, why the fuck does he get a pass?

 

And FWIW, Brady was pretty damn good last night. If Wes Welker doesn't choke and drop that pass, the game is most likely over and everyone is debating whether Brady is better than Joe Montana. Funny, there really isn't much of a difference between winning and losing most of the time. Just how the media and fans overreact after the wins and losses.

 

 

Manning doesn't get a pass. They both suck in the playoffs and have for some time.

 

Also, Brady made a STUPID decision on the safety, threw quite a few bad passes, including the TERRIBLE throw to Welker. If Brady had hit him in stride, game over. Welker dropped a tough, leaping catch.

[Vin+ 3,121]

Strange... BucD, Vin and Co were calling me a dumbass for not labelling Eli as an elite quarterback last night in the shoutbox.

 

Well go ahead and call half the board dumbasses as well. Go on, don't be shy...

Been a while since I've been called out.

 

I didn't call you a dumbass, I just said you were wrong. The main issue last night was the definition of elite. The majority of the people here have him in their top 5. I'd call top 5 elite.

[BwareDWare94 723]

Holy shit, did nobody else drop Philip Rivers out of the elite and great QB discussion after this year? Give me a break, folks.

[Favre4Ever+ 4,476]

Irrelevant. Regardless, you evaluate the player's performance, not the team's perfomance when you compare two players.

 

over under 60% of a team's success isn't in direct control of the offense, even less of that is in the direct control of the QB. So it's unfair to directly blame the QB for the team's success in the playoffs, or lack therof.

 

How is that irrelevant? You want to come in here, pretend like Rivers is better than he is... Pretend like his post season success should be negated because it's a "team effort".. But you are using his regular season stats on one of the most talented teams in the NFL over the last decade as evidence that he is elite.

 

It's far from irrelevant.

[DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241]

How is that irrelevant? You want to come in here, pretend like Rivers is better than he is... Pretend like his post season success should be negated because it's a "team effort".. But you are using his regular season stats on one of the most talented teams in the NFL over the last decade as evidence that he is elite.

 

It's far from irrelevant.

 

In no way did I ever say Rivers is elite. But I did say he has performed better then Eli, which is far from false, I have gone on record saying that neither are. And they aren't.

 

So it's River's fault that in the playoffs his defense has performed worse then Eli's?

 

How many good/great QBs would not win a playoff game when there defense is giving up 14 PPG (avg ppg for the past Giants 8 playoff wins) to the Charger's 22?

 

It's Rivers fault that Nate Kaeding in the playoffs has on several occasions chocked when he's one of the best field goal kickers of this past era?

 

Or how about the fact that in 4 LESS playoff games then Eli, Rivers has faced far tougher defenses.

 

Hell, before this postseason Rivers outplayed Eli in the postseason, and that's playing 1,2 games with injuries, notably the ENTIRE Patriots game on a torn ACL that they still almost won had it not been for a missed field goal.

 

This is very similar to the Payton Manning argument, people consistently act like winning the playoffs and Superbowls is an individual accomplishment when it's VERY FAR from it.

 

Neither of them, nor Eli, nor Ben has had as much of a burden in terms of carrying there offense as Rivers has had. And the #'s speak for themselves. And it's easy to carry your team in the regular season, but in the playoffs where everything is tighter, it becomes that much harder, especially when your defense isn't helping.

 

And the fact that everyone is turning a blind eye to the fact that postseason success, and even winning in the regular season is not an individual accomplishment but a team's is extremely sad. The Chargers two or three years ago (can't remember) had the #1 offense AND defense, and didn't make the playoffs, I guess that's River's fault too right? give me a break. Especially when you consider the fact that Rivers during the time he's started outside of this year has been far and away the more consistent, dominant and efficient then Eli. Heck, this was Eli's best season and he still only put up only a 4% higher QBR then Rivers.

[Favre4Ever+ 4,476]

In no way did I ever say Rivers is elite. But I did say he has performed better then Eli, which is far from false, I have gone on record saying that neither are. And they aren't.

 

So it's River's fault that in the playoffs his defense has performed worse then Eli's?

 

How many good/great QBs would not win a playoff game when there defense is giving up 14 PPG (avg ppg for the past Giants 8 playoff wins) to the Charger's 22?

 

It's Rivers fault that Nate Kaeding in the playoffs has on several occasions chocked when he's one of the best field goal kickers of this past era?

 

Or how about the fact that in 4 LESS playoff games then Eli, Rivers has faced far tougher defenses.

 

Hell, before this postseason Rivers outplayed Eli in the postseason, and that's playing 1,2 games with injuries, notably the ENTIRE Patriots game on a torn ACL that they still almost won had it not been for a missed field goal.

 

This is very similar to the Payton Manning argument, people consistently act like winning the playoffs and Superbowls is an individual accomplishment when it's VERY FAR from it.

 

Neither of them, nor Eli, nor Ben has had as much of a burden in terms of carrying there offense as Rivers has had. And the #'s speak for themselves. And it's easy to carry your team in the regular season, but in the playoffs where everything is tighter, it becomes that much harder, especially when your defense isn't helping.

 

And the fact that everyone is turning a blind eye to the fact that postseason success, and even winning in the regular season is not an individual accomplishment but a team's is extremely sad. The Chargers two or three years ago (can't remember) had the #1 offense AND defense, and didn't make the playoffs, I guess that's River's fault too right? give me a break. Especially when you consider the fact that Rivers during the time he's started outside of this year has been far and away the more consistent, dominant and efficient then Eli. Heck, this was Eli's best season and he still only put up only a 4% higher QBR then Rivers.

 

Ha. I am the one who told you that... And you said it was "irrelevant".

 

I absolutely agree that it is a team effort. In actuality, that's what I am telling you. You say post season wins and success is a team effort.

 

Well thank you for that stunning analysis, but every single aspect of football is a team effort.

 

Whether you are in the preseason, regular season, or post season. It's all a team effort. Every win, every loss.

 

You can just ignore Rivers inability to make a huge splash in the playoffs because "it's a team effort". While at the same time, you praise Rivers for his amazing regular season play, even though... That too depends on a lot of other guys.

 

You want to give him all the praise for his successes, but not of the blame for his failures.

 

I agree that Quarterbacks and the Win statistic is pretty overrated. But you have to be consistent on how you argue the point.

 

Rivers took over for Brees and was put in one of the absolute best positions any quarterback could ever ask for.

 

He had talented players to throw to everywhere he looked, he had a great back field, a solid defense, one of the best P's in the business and a solid kicker.

 

It's hard to actually imagine a team so extremely talented at so many positions . Alas, they have done nothing with that talent.

 

And everyone gets the blame. AJ Smith, Norv, Rivers, and on down the line.

 

And even more recently, the Chargers have had some really solid defensive units. I still think they need some big time playmakers, but the talent is there.

 

However, the results are not. One game over .500 and no playoffs in the last two seasons is nothing short of a failure. There is a lot of blame to go around, most definitely, but Rivers is part of it.

 

What I can say about Eli though is that he is getting better. Unlike Rivers, who has been getting worse for the last few years now.

Edited February 7, 2012 by Favre4Ever

[badgers 380]

I'm in agreement with Dmac here.

 

To me this is Eli Manning's first great season, and Rivers' first terrible one.

 

I don't understand why everyone is so quick to bump Rivers down the list of QBs and replace him with Manning. I know I didn't include Rivers in my original list of top QBs but I think I'll have to edit it to this:

 

Rodgers

Brady

Brees

Roethlisberger

Peyton (if healthy)

Eli/Rivers

 

To me they're tied right around 5th or 6th best in the league. I think it takes more than 1 season to declare somebody a top 5/elite quarterback after years of questioning him (Eli).

[Thanatos 2,847]

I'm gonna second Zack's notion that Tom Brady is no longer elite, though not necessarily because of Spygate. You might think I'm crazy, but think about it: when's the last time Tom Brady was elite in the playoffs? At the very least it was 2006.

 

Against the Broncos this season in 2011, he was pretty elite.

 

Manning doesn't get a pass. They both suck in the playoffs and have for some time.

 

Also, Brady made a STUPID decision on the safety, threw quite a few bad passes, including the TERRIBLE throw to Welker. If Brady had hit him in stride, game over. Welker dropped a tough, leaping catch.

 

I disagree that Brady sucks in the playoffs, but I do agree with the second part of your post.

 

Tom Brady's three big mistakes were the safety, the underthrown INT, and the bad throw to Welker. Yes, Welker made a great adjustment on the ball and still got both hands on it, but it was one heck of a tough catch and it didn't need to be, Wes was wide open.

 

The safety was just a dumb, dumb play that directly lead to 9 of the Giants 21 points. I think the INT lead to another 3, and the pass to Welker lead to the final six. The Giants got 18 of their 21 points, (or maybe 15 of 21 if the INT didn't lead to anything, I don't recall) after Tom Brady made a mistake.

 

His stats look good for last night, but he cost the Patriots a 4th Superbowl with those errors. They would probably have won despite Gronk being pretty much a non-factor if he only makes two of those three mistakes.

Edited February 7, 2012 by Thanatos19

[SteVo+ 3,702]

Though I agree that Brady's pass to Welker was not in stride, Welker still got the ball in his hands and dropped it. Great receivers make that catch.

[DonovanMcnabb for H.O.F 2,241]

Ha. I am the one who told you that... And you said it was "irrelevant".

 

I absolutely agree that it is a team effort. In actuality, that's what I am telling you. You say post season wins and success is a team effort.

 

Well thank you for that stunning analysis, but every single aspect of football is a team effort.

 

Whether you are in the preseason, regular season, or post season. It's all a team effort. Every win, every loss.

 

You can just ignore Rivers inability to make a huge splash in the playoffs because "it's a team effort". While at the same time, you praise Rivers for his amazing regular season play, even though... That too depends on a lot of other guys.

 

You want to give him all the praise for his successes, but not of the blame for his failures.

 

I agree that Quarterbacks and the Win statistic is pretty overrated. But you have to be consistent on how you argue the point.

 

Rivers took over for Brees and was put in one of the absolute best positions any quarterback could ever ask for.

 

He had talented players to throw to everywhere he looked, he had a great back field, a solid defense, one of the best P's in the business and a solid kicker.

 

It's hard to actually imagine a team so extremely talented at so many positions . Alas, they have done nothing with that talent.

 

And everyone gets the blame. AJ Smith, Norv, Rivers, and on down the line.

 

And even more recently, the Chargers have had some really solid defensive units. I still think they need some big time playmakers, but the talent is there.

 

However, the results are not. One game over .500 and no playoffs in the last two seasons is nothing short of a failure. There is a lot of blame to go around, most definitely, but Rivers is part of it.

 

What I can say about Eli though is that he is getting better. Unlike Rivers, who has been getting worse for the last few years now.

 

Of course he's a part of it, and nobody is saying that he isn't.

 

But to really go about claiming Eli>Rivers just because Eli's TEAM has had more success in the postseason then River's is completely unfair to Rivers.

 

Especially considering the fact that when Eli has been in the playoffs, his TEAM has stepped up just as much, if not more then Eli has himself, and has allowed for him to have bad games like he did against the 49ers and still win, whereas Rivers can have a bad game, and nobody on that 'talented' roster steps up. Tom Brady against the Ravens, the list goes on. I can't believe were really out here blaming Rivers because the roster was full of talent and they never won anything, because the QB is the one that wields the team.

 

If people's only valuable argument against Rivers is that Eli has won 2 Super Bowls, a team accomplishment, and 2 SB MVPs, which is pretty much a given to QBs in today's league, and they cling to it like it's all a reflection of Eli's greatness in comparison to Rivers... Even though the offense, and specifically the QB only account for around 30% of a team's success, then I am wasting my time.

 

Because statistically speaking, and speaking from a individual performance standpoint b/w Eli and Rivers, it isn't close. Not even a little, Rivers is on pace to not only be one of the most prolific QBs in NFL history but also one of the most efficient ever.

 

Now if this season was just a preview of more to come for Rivers and Eli, then maybe sure, you can flip them around. But even this past season, where Eli had his best season, and Rivers had arguably his worst as a starter, they were still relatively close.

[NaTaS+ 958]

I know I'm going to piss of some Steeler fans, and this is coming off as unbiased as I can be. Big Ben is a tough fucking QB and one of the best clutch QBs in the league - those are his best assets. I just cant put him in the top tier yet. His first Super Bowl was won by the defense, he had one of the worst performances in Super Bowl history. The second SB he played in was a great performance. Right now, Eli is a rung above Ben.

[Sarge+ 3,436]

I know I'm going to piss of some Steeler fans, and this is coming off as unbiased as I can be. Big Ben is a tough fucking QB and one of the best clutch QBs in the league - those are his best assets. I just cant put him in the top tier yet. His first Super Bowl was won by the defense, he had one of the worst performances in Super Bowl history. The second SB he played in was a great performance. Right now, Eli is a rung above Ben.

 

Now that Ben has a real OC, let's see what happens. For the record, though, I agree with you that Eli is above Ben as of this minute.

[GA_Eagle 595]

Though I agree that Brady's pass to Welker was not in stride, Welker still got the ball in his hands and dropped it. Great receivers make that catch.

 

On the int he underthrew Gronk, as well.

[Maverick 791]

For the record, I think G-Men's list is right on the spot.

 

This is the response when Kurt Warner was asked if Eli Manning is a HOF QB:

“I fully disagree with that,” Warner said during an interview with Burns & Gambo on Sports 620 in Phoenix. “I know we put a lot of weight on championships, and rightfully so. But championships are won as a team. I’m fully convinced of that. You never see one guy — a great player, great quarterback — carry a team through the playoffs and into a Super Bowl and win a Super Bowl that way. I’ve never seen it. You know even in that game [super Bowl XLVI], it’s 21-17. That’s the game. There wasn’t a quarterback just up and down the field carrying the team. “Yeah, he made the plays down the stretch, no question about it. He’s had two great playoff runs, or his team has had two great playoff runs. But I also look at the rest of his career. I mean, he has an 82 quarterback rating throughout his career. He’s had five of his eight seasons where he has thrown 16 interceptions or more. His completion percentage on his career is 58 percent.

 

 

 

“To me, those aren’t Hall of Fame numbers and by that I mean every time you step on the field you’re a game changer, you’re a difference maker. And I don’t believe Eli Manning has been that guy until this year. I think this year is the first time in his career where he’s become that guy.”

 

 

 

Full article here if anyone is interested: Link

[Barracuda 629]

If Eli Manning were to retire right now. I don't think he's a HoF player.

 

Although, Eli and Warner have nearly identical stats. Eli has one more SB ring and one more SB MVP. Though most people believe Warner is a HoF player. I think Eli still has his best football in front of him and when it's all said and done I think he may be Hall of Fame material. But I completely agree with what Kurt is saying.

[i.m.live 17]

1a.rodgers

1b.brees

1c.brady

1d.eli

5.peyton

[Thanatos 2,847]

1a.rodgers

1b.brees

1c.brady

1d.eli

5.peyton

 

All right. I've about had enough of this guy.

 

I've held back because you're new but you are simply a huge Giants homer and that's the truth.

 

Your list of award players are all Giants except for the rookies of the year. Surprised you didn't tap Amukamura for DROY:

 

mvp. Eli Manning

opoy. Victor Cruz

dpov. jpp

coy. Tom coughlin

oroy. cam

droy. von miller

cpoy. Osi

 

You wanted Eli as the MVP over Rodgers for crying out loud.

 

And now this.

 

Eli is not 1d, he is not tied with Brees, Rodgers, and Brady for the best 4 QBs in the NFL. Not to mention Ben isn't even on your list.

 

Eli is only arguably top-5 in the NFL. Please, learn a little football and quit being such a massive homer.

Edited February 8, 2012 by Thanatos19

[badgers 380]

1a.rodgers

1b.brees

1c.brady

1d.eli

5.peyton

 

Brah, you trollin brah?

 

Edited February 8, 2012 by badgers