Russell Wilson's ascension to elite QB ranks

[BwareDWare94 723]

I also want Seattle fans to stop tricking themselves into thinking Bevell is a good coordinator. He is incredibly mediocre, at best, and the addition of Percy Harvin makes him look much better than he is. Harvin is a playmaker who is going to make ANY playcaller look good. Even Bill Musgrave looked decent with Percy Harvin out there.

 

Seattle WILL get better once someone else is calling plays, because we all know Bevell's going to get an unwarranted head coaching job handed to him, at some point.

[Dutch 874]

 

Good points all.

 

I'm not sure I buy the argument that because a player's team is good, they can't be elite. I have no issues saying Troy Aikman was an elite QB, and his supporting cast on the whole was far superior to that of Seattle's. Particularly along the OL. Defensively, I'd give the nod to Seattle but not by much.

 

If we're doing the hypothetical QB swap, then there are 2 categories of QB that you can simply write off from the start.

 

1. Immobile QBs. This line is a movement line. They are athletic but not necessarily stout walls. Very good at sealing off a penetrator, but they generally allow significant penetration. It's left to Russell to sense the seal side and move to the seal side. It requires more than simple moving up in the pocket. Anyone who's seen a Seahawks game knows that Wilson must neutralize pass rushers by himself on multiple occasions.

 

So remove the following:

 

Peyton Manning

Tom Brady

Philip Rivers

Carson Palmer

Sam Bradford

Matthew Stafford

Matt Cassell

Nick Foles

Chad Henne

Eli Manning

 

2. QB's that lose games. Seattle is a take care of the ball team. QBs capable of losing games on their own simply aren't going to be on this team at any level (e.g. Pryor doesn't make the team but Tavaris Jackson does)

 

So remove the following:

 

Andy Dalton

Tony Romo

Ryan Fitzpatrick

Joe Flacco

Derek Anderson

Jay Cutler

Jake Locker

EJ Manuel

Geno Smith

Ryan Tannehill

Robert Griffin (current version)

 

That pretty much leaves the following:

 

Aaron Rodgers

Andrew Luck

Alex Smith

Ben Rothlisberger

Colin Kaepernick

Drew Brees

Matt Ryan

Cam Newton

 

The number of players who could excel with this team is really pretty short. And really, amongst this list of likely successful candidates, I'd probably only expect Luck, Rothlisberger, Ryan and Brees to really succeed at a similar level.

 

This is a pretty extreme hypothetical and I'm not sure I agree with the line of reasoning. Just because Seattle using Wilson in a lot of rollout/bootleg plays and his O-line caters to that scheme doesn't mean that other QB's couldn't be successful in that offense. Like Bware pointed out, that's the scheme they use for him probably to cater to his strengths but adjustments could easily be made in regards to the O-line scheming or even routes of the receivers; shorter routes and getting the ball out faster. They could simply not use those rollout plays that cater to Wilson. And the Seahawk's line doesn't appear to be that bad to where Wilson has no time to throw in the pocket. Seattle just uses rollout/bootleg plays to compliment his scrambling ability and Wilson also improvises and uses his scrambling ability to his benefit. I also find it very hard to agree that Peyton, Brady, or Rivers wouldn't be successful in Seattle because they are immobile QBs. Especially Peyton making O-line adjustments at the line of scrimmage.

 

As far as QB's who lose games, generally, any winning team is a take care of the football team. But Seattle's defense having the leagues highest turnover rate, we may never know how that plays out. But I'd be willing to say Romo would probably do well with the Seahawks and the amazing support system that they have. Romo is another QB who has a very heavy workload for his team with how pass happy they are and a defense that always gives up leads. Unfortunately, he can't handle that load towards the end of the game but with a Seattle team that makes life as a QB exceptionally easier, who knows. But if you believe that Alex Smith could be with Seattle and have still have similar success to Russell Wilson, that says a lot about the support system that Wilson really has which is no where near the workload of an elite QB.

Edited September 13, 2014 by Dutch

[Dutch 874]

vs Week 2

 

This was a good game and congrats to the Chargers. Rivers carved up in the league and it really came down to precision passing. Rivers was out there throwing some perfectly placed balls that simply couldn't be defended. However, I look at a game like this and I believe it reinforces what I've been saying. In this game, the Seahawks deviated from the run game only attempting 13 runs the entire game (even though it was working) and they primarily relied on Russell Wilson to move the ball. Furthermore, the Seahawks defense didn't have control of the game, dominating like they usually do. They lost the lead but it was far from insurmountable .

This is the perfect scenario for relying on your QB's arm or legs to bring your team back into the game and it just didn't happen. The scenario where elite QB's shine and make plays. Wilson had the workload of a conventional QB; not having the lead, running game not a factor, and being relied on to win the game; not just maintain it or manage it (and I'm not saying he's just a game manager), but to win it. This was a very winnable game. The Seahawks had a costly penalty with Bruce Irvin but the Hawks were also handed a TD with Percy Harvin's run who clearly stepped out of bounds. All of that is fine but none of that matters because Wilson had the ball last, in his hands in the 4th quarter with 2 minutes left and could have. That was the moment. He was in complete control and could have dictated the outcome of that game with a scoring drive in a one possession game. Those are the moments that make elite QB's what they are. Not simply just being smart with the ball and making a good plays while your defense holds the opponent to less than 20 points and your run game is carrying your offense.

Edited September 15, 2014 by Dutch

[BC 331]

https://twitter.com/TheMikeSalk/status/513842341271326720

[oochymp 2,393]

Brady, Manning, Rodgers, and Brees had a lot to do with that TD:INT ratio didn't they? and wins/loses are team stats

[Turry 755]

https://twitter.com/TheMikeSalk/status/513842341271326720

 

Does not make him elite,the Team is elite. There is a difference.

Edited September 22, 2014 by monstersofthemidway

[BwareDWare94 723]

I won't be able to listen to sports talk radio this week because people will be lining up to suck Wilson off over a GWD with every day throws and a jackhammer finish by the Lynch.

[Attyla the Hawk 197]

I'm hesitant to continue in this thread. I mean it looks like it'll simply devolve into a weekly revisit of Wilson's performance which is going to be pretty pointless for all involved. It's pretty clear that Wilson is just a different QB. And for many, he'll be the round peg that doesn't fit in the square hole that is group think expectation.

 

Wilson clearly can win on his own in crunch time against an elite opponent. He's done it plenty of times now. I expect like any of the other QBs we think of as elite, he'll also fail plenty going forward.

 

I'll just continue to enjoy wins, while others continue to manufacture reasons/excuses why he's not critical to the team's success. It's pretty clear at this point, that if you don't think he's elite by now -- no amount of titles or records or continued excellence will alter one's individual opinion here. Wilson is not going to conform to the prototype pocket passer. That's just not going to happen while Carroll is coach here. And if that makes it impossible to appreciate his quality then I'm not inclined to keep a discussion going where the participants can't agree even on the most basic principles.

[BwareDWare94 723]

Nobody is saying he isn't good, but he surely isn't elite. The guy came into the league and has since had the best 53 man, 45 active on gameday roster in the NFL. I know he hasn't had the greatest receivers in the world, but to act like this guy carries this team for anything but VERY small portions of the season would be ludicrous. He's a good quarterback with some good numbers but he's not that good, yet.

 

The fans here aren't bad at all. It's ESPN analysts and the like who want to bow to him like he's already met his potential. Russell Wilson still goes through patches of average play. He does not pass the eye test, continually. He's a good quarterback, situationally great.

[BC 331]

You have to carry your team to be elite? He makes the most of just about every single play. Rarely turns it over. Rarely does anything but play absolutely brilliant when the game is down to the wire. If your definition of elite is what I think it is, then your definition of elite is garbage.

[KempBolt 498]

I'm a Russell Wilson apologist, but the guy has to stop retreating from edge pressure. I'm not saying he shouldn't scramble, but when the pass rusher has the edge, and you back up, you're making it next to impossible to create a positive play. Step up in the pocket, and scramble from there if need be. He retreated multiple times against the Chargers and it resulted in negative plays and throwaways. Then yesterday, Turbin had perfect position to negate a blitzing T.J. Ward and it didn't matter because Wilson backed himself into a sack.

[BwareDWare94 723]

You have to carry your team to be elite? He makes the most of just about every single play. Rarely turns it over. Rarely does anything but play absolutely brilliant when the game is down to the wire. If your definition of elite is what I think it is, then your definition of elite is garbage.

 

My definition of elite doesn't involve stretches of completely marginal play, like the second half of last season. He's not elite, yet. Get. Over. It.

 

There are a lot of quarterbacks who could have led that Seahawks team to a Super Bowl. I'm not going to bow to a guy working with the best roster in football.

[Glanvilles Grits 142]

 

Does not make him elite,the Team is elite. There is a difference.

 

This right here.

 

I get so sick of the QB vs QB statistics and win percentages. It's just stupid. A quarterback doesn't play the opposing quarterback, they play the opposing defenses. What one quarterback does on the field, has no effect on what another does.

 

This makes the Seahawks elite, it's makes the Seahawks defense real damn good - as we already know they are.

 

Russell Wilson is a great quarterback, but let's not be stacking him up as the best because of his win percentage against other great quarterbacks teams.

[RazorStar 4,025]

Yeah, stack him up as a great because of his performance against those playoff teams.

[Omerta+ 1,206]

You have to carry your team to be elite? He makes the most of just about every single play. Rarely turns it over. Rarely does anything but play absolutely brilliant when the game is down to the wire. If your definition of elite is what I think it is, then your definition of elite is garbage.

 

Isn't the defense carrying that team why they are universally known as elite ?

 

As to Russel himself. I do not think he is elite. I think he is god damn efficient, and a very good QB, but I wont call him elite yet. Can he get there, he has the tools to do it with his mobility and strong arm being huge assets to his success, he also seems to prepare very well every week. That being said I will not put him in the same category as Peyton, Rodgers, Brees, and Brady. Yes, them being able to carry their team on their own is a huge factor in that for me.

 

The guy plays within his offense and makes the throws when he needs to sometimes and sometimes he does not.

 

I am curious though how much of that is by design. Thinking back to Pete Carrol in his entire body of work, when has he ever not been a QB friendly guy ? Does this have something to do with USC QB's looking like pro ready QB's in college and flopping in the pros ? It seems like Carrol likes to split the load as evenly as possible between QB, RB, WR, and defense as a game plan in a holistic approach. He never asks any one group to do to much maximizing their efficiency and minimizing risk. There is not a coach in football at the moment I would take over him. As amazed as people are by Wilson, I am by Carrol.

[seanbrock 1,684]

I don't think Peyton or Brady carry their teams or really ever have to be honest. Peyton has a very good defense and more weapons than any QB in the league and has ALWAYS had great weapons. He's played very well this year and last year but the Broncos are still easily a playoff team without him imo. We don't even need to get into Brady lol. Brees and Rodgers are probably the only guys who might be able to do it, but one guy is probably gonna miss at least 2-3 games a year and the other doesn't win enough outside of that dome. Hell Brees was pretty embarrassingly bad at home against the Bucs. Ben is close, but where exactly has he carried his team to since they haven't had an elite defense? 8-8? I realize that Seattle clearly the best team in the league the past two years, but no football team is ever going to be very successful being carried by one guy. As good as Seattle's defense is, they'd be a wild card team and on the playoff bubble if they were rolling with Matt Flynn. Wilson isn't completely polished and has a lot of room to grow, but he's shown time and time again that he can get it done when he has to. If the Seahawks were a basketball team, Russell Wilson is the guy who's taking the shot down 2 with 2 seconds on the clock.

[AllYouNeedIsLovie 377]

I think Wilson is a good QB, but I believe people hype him up way too much. For example, today I read people thinking he's in the same class as Brees, Rodgers, Manning and Brady as well as heard people today on the radio saying Wilson won the game single-handedly last night which is absurd.

A part of the Seahawks that goes very unnoticed is how good their Special Teams is. They do not let returners get any yards as their gunners are great and they have one of the best Punters (not to mention Kicker) in the league. This is huge for the Seahawks as they're usually in great field position and it makes it much easier on their offense, especially when their defense is forcing 3 and outs.

For example, look at the 2nd half of last night. Every drive other than the last one of the game started at the Seahawks own 40 or better, and Wilson and the Seahawks offense only scored points on 1 of those 4 drives (On the one they did score points on, they had to convert a 4th and 1 on a fake FG, so their special teams even helped there).

Wilson and the Seahawks offense went 3 and out three times in a row to start off the 2nd half, and it resulted in 3 punts. All 3 punts pinned the Redskins inside their own 10 yard line, and the Seahawks defense forced three straight 3 and outs. To have Special Teams that good and a defense who can consistently stop offenses IN ADDITION to a great a running game makes it much easier on an offense because it not only takes more pressure of the QB, but puts him in great positions to succeed.

Like I said, Wilson is definitely a good QB, but I definitely do not think he is elite and I don't think he could ever carry a team like Manning, Brees, Rodgers or Brady could. I think he's a top 10 QB who's probably in the next their after the elite 4.

Edited October 8, 2014 by AllYouNeedIsLovie

[BC 331]

I'll agree he shouldn't be ranked higher than 5th no question, and it's probably more like 6 or 7. But he kind of did single-handedly win us the game last night. The defense was good, fewer than 20 points allowed, but certainly not lights out. Russell Okung had yet another terrible road game. JR Sweezy probably had the best performance on the O-line last night. Everybody else had touchdown & first down negating penalties, awful protection, bad snaps. His receivers had two or three drops (Percy an easy one). Lynch played very well yes but by no means a world-beating performance. There were a ton of opportunities to turn the ball over, yet RW didn't, and this is the case almost every single week. The main fixes that Pete Carroll took away from this game is that nearly everything other than RW's play needs cleaning up, especially in the trenches.

 

Hats off to Cousins for bouncing back somewhat after a horrendous performance last week and playing turnover-free football last night. But Russell used every part of his arsenal of physical tools he has, including taking some really hard hits, to win this game. Wilson's performance was clearly the one that you could not remove from last night's game and still expect a victory. First game of his that I've seen where he's clearly shown that he can carry this team, if needed. And that's the thing that keeps this debate rolling. He hasn't really needed to to this point.

[BwareDWare94 723]

When your team holds an NFL opponent to under 20 points, nobody single-handedly wins a game.

 

I'm sorry, but I'm not going to get in line to praise this dude until I see something other than every day quarterback play with running ability, with very occasional flashes of greatness.

Best roster. Some of the best special teams, as noted above by AllYouNeedisLovie, one of the best coaching staffs, the best straight ahead running back in the league, the best defense in the league.

 

This is getting really old.

[True Blue 16]

When your team holds an NFL opponent to under 20 points, nobody single-handedly wins a game.

 

I'm sorry, but I'm not going to get in line to praise this dude until I see something other than every day quarterback play with running ability, with very occasional flashes of greatness.

 

Best roster. Some of the best special teams, as noted above by AllYouNeedisLovie, one of the best coaching staffs, the best straight ahead running back in the league, the best defense in the league.

 

This is getting really old.

 

Just because a black belt in karate or similar master in whatever martial arts you prefer typically isn't going to need to use that skillset to defend himself, doesn't mean that in those rare situations where it's required, he/she isn't going to kick that attacker's ass. Flame the analogy all you want, make excuses that because Wilson isn't required to carry the team all the time because his defense doesn't suck that he by default isn't an elite QB, but nearly every time he's been faced with a situation where he's needed to carry the team to a win, he has. See the OT Chicago game in 2012, the division playoff game in 2012 against the Falcons where the defense was sieve, or similarly the Buccaneers game in Seattle last year, Russell Wilson has proven time and time again he can put the team on his back, arm and legs and put the team in position to win. He did it at NC State, he did it at Wisconsin, and he continues to do it in the NFL. You can think he isn't elite all you want, but his career body of work pretty clearly displays that he is.

Edited October 8, 2014 by True Blue

[seanbrock 1,684]

I know the NFL is a lot different than it was back when the Pats were winning Super Bowls, but when the Patriots had those dominant defenses and were more of a run first team with mediocre WR's he wasn't putting up record breaking stats. A lot of people pointed to the stats Peyton was putting up and saying Brady was being carried by his defense...then the Patriots team changed and Brady started throwing 40 TD's a year and that argument was put to bed. Peyton Manning kept "putting his team on his back" and getting ko'd in the first round of the playoffs on an almost yearly basis.

[Glanvilles Grits 142]

The thing that gets me with Wilson is the fact that I really believe he has no fear on the field. He can have linebackers and defensive ends breathing down the front collar of his jersey and still make a beautiful pass or spin around and run to the other end of the field.

 

I don't think Wilson is in that top 4 category yet for me, but he certainly passes every eye test I've put to him.

Edited October 10, 2014 by Rain Man

[Sarge+ 3,436]

Even if he's not an "elite" QB, why does everyone care so much? I think it's obvious he's more than good enough to help Seattle be the best team in football, and that's really all that matters.

[Crash3021 101]

Even if he's not an "elite" QB, why does everyone care so much? I think it's obvious he's more than good enough to help Seattle be the best team in football, and that's really all that matters.

 

Couldn't agree more, it really doesn't matter if he's elite or not because of their defense and special teams.

[theMileHighGuy 656]

I've said it a million times, I don't think Wilson is "elite", but when they need him to make a play, he almost always does, and I think that's more important than any label.